31 Comments

1. 

   Alex Krause April 9, 2015 Reply

   It seems God was and is good to you since He brought you to realize His sufficiency. "Belonging" is a need due to the alienation from God. It can only be found in The Creator.
   
   Most church groups today use carnal means to alleviate their attendees feelings of alienation. Ultimately this fails. However, some, like you will study their bible and find The One who gives peace.
   
   Try to think of church as a "learning center" instead of a "worship center". Of course learning can be a form of worship if understood correctly. Worship is crediting God rightly. Worship is every speech and deed enabled by God's Spirit. It (worship) should characterize our lives before God. Worship can have an emotional component but it is not merely an emotional response. Music in church is not necessarily worship. The embryonic church of the apostles didn't have music as part of their functioning. Today, most church groups use music as an "emotional tool" to build and maintain their communities. They are building on sand.

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     J.B. April 10, 2015 Reply

     Alex,
     
     I agree that there is a part of us that can be filled only by God, and there is indeed a lack of "belonging" when we are estranged from Him. But I don't believe this is what Ileata was writing about. God designed us not only for a relationship with Him, but also for relationships with other people as well. We can certainly "survive" here solely on a relationship with the Creator, but how sad would it be to miss out on the community for which He created us?
     
     I also agree that some churches go off the deep end with respect to pure emotionalism, but worship as a limited, pedantic set of actions reduced to function isn't healthy either.

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       Alex Krause April 14, 2015 Reply

       Hi J.B.,
       
       Certainly I did not mean any mere functionality at all. Instead, I believe, we ought to follow the explicit commands given in scripture of what church gatherings should be: Reading (the scriptures- this command is not abrogated just because everyone has access to a bible), teaching, and exhortation. However not only the explicit items but to really think and try to understand what we are doing, therefore implicit things also such as the Lord's Supper and Baptism. Most Christians see these things as contentious issues because there is so much disagreement among Christians about them, so these central 'participations' (LS and baptism the congregant 'participates) are neglected.
       
       Also J.B., just because God made us social that is what assembling together should target the congregant's social need? No, its not about us. We are indirect beneficiaries- for instance: the bible tells us it is more blessed to give than receive, so then should it be a reason to give so as to be blessed? No, I don't think so. The cruciform life of a disciple should be Jesus manifested in us. Assembly life should be to the praise of the glory of His grace. An encouragement of each other's faith.

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     Karen April 12, 2015 Reply

     Alex, I don't believe it is quite correct to say, "The embryonic church of the apostles didn't have music as part of their functioning." If you mean this to deny that hymnody and psalmody were a significant part of the worship and spiritual formation of the apostles and early Church, I would have to say the NT refutes you (as well as does what we know of early Church history and liturgy). On the other hand, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean in this statement. I'm sure the music of the apostolic Church was not designed to manipulate the emotions as it seems a lot of Christian music is today.
     
     From an Orthodox perspective, I would also observe Christ is certainly sufficient, but Christ is most emphatically NOT alone (see Hebrews 12:13) and neither are we. He saves us for the very purpose of making us members of HIS BODY. If we have no real communion with others who love Him, we are only fooling ourselves that we are in communion with Christ (see 1 John 4, especially vss. 7-8 and 20-21).

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       Karen April 13, 2015 Reply

       I just wanted to add for the sake of the author of the above article that I intended my comments about the nature of Christ's sufficiency and the communal nature of communion in Him as an affirmation that experiencing the love of Christ motivates and enables us to love others and find a true communion of love with each other in Him, not that we have to out of duty submit to "community" or deny our convictions in order to find acceptance and belonging in a group such as happens in IBLP/Ati. It was because I was responding to some of Alex's statements, not Ileata's, that I responded with the emphasis I did. I agree with her concluding comments.
       
       The context of the the Apostle John's teaching in chapter 4 is his teaching earlier in the same epistle, "We love because He first loved us." Also, we don't love in the sense the apostle is talking about here merely because we have this as "head knowledge" because we read these words in Scripture and have rationally understood the logical flow of the sentence (as it seems so much of BG's approach in his curricula seem to implicitly assume)! It should be obvious, but I will make my point explicit: we "love" in this sense only when we ourselves have had a true experience of the love of God in Christ.

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       rob war April 13, 2015 Reply

       I am wondering if he meant by embryonic church didn't have music, he was referring to the non use of musical instruments because there certainly was singing in the earliest liturgies but there wasn't use of musical instruments per say. Gregorian chant represents that. I think in the Orthodox liturgy, singing is without the use of musical instruments even today. Maybe you can confirm this but that is my understanding after visiting a Russian Orthodox Church and the Priest explained this. It is hard to separate out music from the use of instruments and singing and chanting without their use is a foreign concept for most Protestants.

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         Karen April 14, 2015

         Good points, Rob. Yes, I wondered this, too, which is why I mentioned maybe misunderstanding the intent of Alex's statement. Churches of Christ also follow this a cappella singing tradition of the Apostolic Church.

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         Alex Krause April 14, 2015

         Hi rob,
         
         Gregorian Chant was in the period of about 500-600 CE so not really during the embryonic period of the Apostles.
         
         A classic verse on music is Eph. 5.19 and many think assembling as a church should have these musical features. However the context of Paul's instruction doesn't seem to be assembling in a strict sense. It seems to me the pattern endorsed by both Jesus and Paul was the weekly practice of the synagogue. The weekly synagogue was like a school as opposed to the Temple liturgy.
         
         The one regular liturgical practice of the New Christian Community was The Lord's Supper which, though not commanded, was a regular feature and even a daily occurrence it seems as they met daily sometimes. Today among Evangelicals this has changed. Hardy do I see the Lord's Supper observed but music is everywhere. Why the change from the embryonic practice?
         
         The Lord's Supper was designed to be an affirmation by the observer of the reality of the New Covenant as one of its features. Of course this is not the exclusive feature but I think it is a primary one.
         
         Music is the language of the emotions I will agree. Why are most Christians relying on emotionalism to create a sense of belonging? It does create a unity of sorts, but it seems like only on a emotional level whereas The Lord's Supper is a stand (affirmation), so a volitional and deeper commitment.

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         Karen April 14, 2015

         Alex, that Gregorian chant came into fruition about 500 AD or so is completely beside the point. You do realize that the early Christians were Jews (as well as Jesus, obviously), and that the Psalms (sung poetic prayers!) were the primary hymn and prayer book for the Jews, don't you? Jewish worship at the time of Jesus also featured other liturgical prayers and daily readings from the OT Scriptures ("Law and the Prophets") related to the Fasts and Feasts of Judaism. We have references in the NT which show us that until they were kicked out, Jesus and His apostles went regularly to synagogue and to the Great Feasts at the Temple and that Jesus taught as a Rabbi in the synagogue on occasion (as did the Apostle Paul). The OT is also full of references and exhortations to worship God in song and even with musical instruments. From that early 1st century Jewish chant tradition various other chant traditions developed in the Church: Byzantine (Greek), Gregorian (in the Western Church), Zammeny (in Russia) and so on.
         
         What tradition of interpretation is informing your study of the Scriptures (and Church history)? You might find the information at this link helpful:
         
         http://www.biblelessons.com/origins.html

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         Jay Rowland April 16, 2015

         Hi, rob war...I do appreciate most of your posts, but it seems more and more you are painting with very large brush strokes, particularly with comments about Protestants. It's almost like you're trying to offend.
         
         For example here, your statement that singing without instruments is a foreign concept for most Protestants. What in the world? Some Protestants don't allow instruments. Many congregations close with a benediction such as the "Doxology." Many times we sing a capella and even have travelling a capella groups. What about Christmas carolling? Singing reverently around a campfire...without a guitar? Those are just a handful of instances.
         
         Perhaps you--and others--will consider whether future Catholic-Protestant comparisons and sweeping statements will detract from or help discussion on RG.
         
         If you all are going to blow my mind, do it in a good way! :)

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         rob war April 16, 2015

         Sorry Jay, I was not trying to offend at all! I joined the Catholic Church as an adult so I am quite aware of differences and issues and have explored them myself in a lot in reading and study. I probably should have been more careful in not trying to make a sweeping generalizations. I think I had more of an idea of independent Charismatic on the brain in making the statement. I do not like to wear Catholic on my sleeve because I'm not interested in starting debates or even having to defend the usual anti-Catholic barbs like Catholics don't read the Bible or defend bad things that may have happen in the past and do not apply now. Most of the people here come from the evangelical world and that of course is pretty broad based with a variety of worship styles. Sorry for the non intended offense, that isn't the plan at all. Thanks for pointing that out.

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       Alex Krause April 14, 2015 Reply

       Hi Karen,
       
       The Hebrews 12.13 reference does not seem to apply. Did you mean another passage?
       
       I am not saying to neglect assembling at all, rather to try to find out what pleases the Lord. Some folks go to church for merit. Some folks go to church to get emotional support apart from any spiritual goal. Some folks go to church because they think they need to 'support God.' These reasons by themselves are not how we should think about assembling together. Even the concept of Koinania is not about us primarily.
       
       As a matter of fact Karen, I recommend community, but not apart from my conscience. I also unreservedly recommend (and am bound) to love my brethren (sisterns :^) are inclusive). Actually, love for Christians is a test for inclusion into the One Body.
       
       The concept found to Israel applies to us also today, I believe: " One of you will chase a thousand, two of you will chase ten thousand." Do you see the exponential power in this promise? That is what should happen when we meet together as Christians: an empowering, a blessing, an assurance, a deeper commitment. We should assemble selflessly thinking of others (we who are more mature in the faith, yes, people hurt and we should pray for them and encourage them).
       
       Also, God is not needy in any sense since he is the giver of everything. He wants to meet our needs. When He meets the deepest needs in our life this brings Him praise, of which He is all deserving.

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         Karen April 14, 2015

         Thanks, Alex. Sorry for the typo--I meant to type Hebrews 2:13. Hopefully, with that change, my comment and reference this verse will make more sense!
         
         I absolutely agree we go to worship to please the Lord. It's not about us in terms of our merely carnal needs and interests. It is about us, though, in the sense that we go because we need the Lord, we need his healing/salvation (not because He needs us, as you said). We need to feed on Him or we have no life within us (John 6). We feed on Him through the sacramental life (communion) of His Church, through prayer, through meditation on the Scriptures, both in the corporate liturgy and in private personal worship, etc. If we look at the major orthodox Creeds of the early Church, an article of faith in those creeds refers to "one holy catholic and apostolic church" and some also add "the communion of saints". The "children" who are with Christ (in Hebrews 2:13), where He is "the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29) also describes this loving spiritual communion in Christ, which is the nature of our salvation in Him.
         
         We do assemble together to encourage one another, but this is more of a fringe benefit and overflow of the healing we ourselves receive from God.

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         rob war April 15, 2015

         Alex,
         I think what may please God is not to worry about the why's of others in attending Sunday Church serves or Mass. Do you think that God is going to split hairs here about the motives and reasoning when attending Church? I think God is very pleased when people attend whether they do so out of obligation, out of love, out of need etc. These sorts of deep seated motives and reasoning belong to God, not to each other. I am currently reading a very good book "The Mass of the Early Christians" by Mike Aquilino who looks at what the earliest worship was like with the earliest Christians. One cannot base early Church Mass on just NT alone because NT isn't very specific and clear. There are some verses from St. Paul that allude to Sunday vs Saturday and that there are scripture readings and "breaking of bread" or communion. If one was to look at Catholic Mass, Orthodox and even Oriental Orthodox (Coptic), you would see that the Mass has two parts, liturgy of the word (official readings from the Bible) and liturgy of the Eucharist. I know Karen can attest to the Orthodox but for Catholic (which includes 23 rites under it's wings), liturgy of the word is just as important as the Eucharist. Unlike what another poster claimed about Catholics and Bible, 71% of the Mass in either readings, responses or prayers is directly from the Bible. I think what you are seeing is that most of evangelical Protestant services have strayed from this model. Lutheran and Anglican and some Methodist still use the basic two fold liturgical model from the Apostles which alway included the Eucharist. I think you seem to be searching this out, i would encourage you to do so but you may have to expand your horizons and start to look at the writings of the earliest Christians that followed and were disciples of the Apostles and not reread the few NT verses with modern eyes and understanding.

2. 

   J.B. April 9, 2015 Reply

   "That’s where I am—trying to belong. Trying to find people who will not just be nice to me, but accept me. I’m looking for Christians who will take the time to understand why I act or think differently. Ideally, I want a church which values the experience I bring as a survivor of legalism."
   
   Me too, Ileata. Me too.
   
   My experience was certainly different - I never had much interaction with other ATI / IBLP people, particularly those my own age. Most of the folks we knew in the program were like us: on the "outside," not completely sold on everything Gothard, but still eager to buy into the new way of life and be set apart from everyone as much as possible. I quickly got used to the idea that I wouldn't be able to experience normal relationships because "the world" was all about spending time with and getting advice from friends instead of authority figures. What peer relationships I had were opportunities to flaunt my superior morality ("be a witness") in an attempt to demonstrate that IBLP had the solution to every problem.
   
   It wasn't until I left IBLP and found an accepting church community in my teen years that I realized just what I was missing out on. At the time, I never even thought that IBLP was responsible for my stunted growth. Even in college, when I had to confront many of my issues head on, I hardly even thought about what was instilled in me from my childhood. It wasn't until I was thrust into the real world that I found RG, read the stories, and realized just how similar mine was to others'.
   
   Now my struggle is learning how to function in the church. I try not to be judgmental, but it's so hard not to ignore the beliefs and attitudes that are basically less concentrated forms of what made IBLP what it is. I've got a good group of friends with whom I've shared my story, but it's still difficult to talk about the experience - and especially how it still affects my outlook today - when no one else has the same background. Words and phrases that seem normal, that others take for granted - can often be reminders of what I left behind.
   
   Thanks for sharing, Ileata. You're not alone.

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     Ileata April 9, 2015 Reply

     "Now my struggle is learning how to function in the church."
     
     That's how I feel exactly! Your comments made me cry.

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     rob war April 10, 2015 Reply

     I am not sure if this ideas will help you (and others struggling here) but the view that our faith and walk is a spiritual journey and like any journey, different people will be at different places along that journey and that's ok with God so that's going to be ok with me. It seems like IBLP was such a cookie cutter mold and the emphasis on everything is the same for everyone at all times no matter what is what needs to be freed from. Viewing life as a spiritual journey and your experiences are going to be different than someone elses and that's ok hopefully will free yourself from looking at others from the view point of IBLP standards are if they are measuring up to that.

3. 

   Betty April 10, 2015 Reply

   Ileata,
   
   Ditto for us. Recently broke the bonds of "BG," and all related to "BG." Grown children are keeping in touch. We are walking a whole different path from what we (and children) were on as ATI family (and TC/Staff) for 14 years. Love and prayers to you from fellow-Texans...

4. 

   esbee April 11, 2015 Reply

   how interesting---I was going to read this but decided to go to the flea market---now reading it is so coincidental in the light of what happened at the flea market. I met a man selling the books he wrote about a woman who a Nazi concentration survivor. I did not buy the book but we ended up talking about legalism and my negative experiences within the church. Then he asked me which church I attended and told him my husband and I had not been to church in 20 years and related the incidents that led up to our quitting. (Designed to Be a Finger) Then he invited me to his church and told me all about how they believe and follow the bible. He stated that my husband and I both have talents that are going to waste and not being used in the church as to why we need to attend. Where had I heard this before? Oh yes, many, many years ago when I first learned about a deeper walk with God and how we would be used by God to be a mighty army to lead people to Him because we were soooo specially chosen by God. So far, the only person I ever led to the Lord has now come out as gay (still believes in God but does not acknowledge his lifestyle as sin!) So, If I belong to God it is not by anything I ever did or will do. And it is up to Him to keep me.

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     rob war April 13, 2015 Reply

     I am sure this person meant well but he obviously didn't know when to stop. Instead of just saying, you are always welcomed to attend and be, he went on to put some kind of guilt trip on you about being used by God. Some people just don't know when to stop and shut up and leave it alone. All he had to say was you are welcome to come, (didn't have to puff the Church up by stating it was a "Bible" believing implying they were better than the rest), come as you are, the door is always open, we would love to have you. Keep it simple stupid. Going off on guilt trips doesn't help anyone come to Church. The saddest comments on RG are those like yours where the hurt and pain have been to great to go back to Church. I don't think deep down inside that is what you truly desire or want. I do pray for you and the others that struggle with this. And that is not s guilt trip, just simple Christian concern.

5. 

   Sarah April 12, 2015 Reply

   I understand where you are coming from. I love this sight because I can feel a little bit of the old feeling of community. It's so awesome to be able to speak my first language and be understood in a grace based setting.
   I haven't been to church in 8 years. I can't go into a church without having panic attacks. When I left the environment I grew up in it was extremely traumatic for me. I am no longer welcome in the homes and hearts where I grew up. (Our version of ATI was heavily mixed with the local Amish culture.) I still feel really sinful for not being a functioning part of the body of Christ. But how happy I am to know that His Grace is sufficient and He understands my struggle even when others can't. Faith is not always about where you are strong, sometimes it's about accepting where you are weak.

6. 

   rob war April 13, 2015 Reply

   Sometimes, I wonder if the concept and emphasis that the Church as a "community" overshadows the other concept of a Church as a place of prayer and what holds people back from attending "Church" is the community not the idea of Church as a place of prayer or where one can go to encounter Christ directly. Not that one can encounter Christ outside of the physical walls, but a special place to go and pray and just be, no strings attached. That kind of experiences of going to a daily Mass and just praying and being still went a long way in healing and wholeness in my life and I think if others who are not attending any Church at all will as well. A lot of hurt expressed about attending and participating in Church that can with some simple steps lead to wholeness and healing.

7. 

   LJ April 14, 2015 Reply

   Thank you all for sharing your hearts here! Our family was part of a very legalistic church for many years. When we first went there, it wasn't. But then we got into Bill Gothard's teachings (only one family used ATI curriculum). It was a life of rules, rules, rules--if you followed them, how "spiritual" you were. I am appalled now at how we abused God's grace and love. Our church changed for the better over a number of years. It took a long time to become free from the legalistic ways and thinking.
   
   The main reason I appreciate your sharing is that our older son has continued to struggle in his walk with the Lord and especially with going to church. As you shared your feelings, it has helped me to understand what he is feeling. At one point I suggested that he try to read the Bible as if he had never read it before--but realize how that doesn't happen when certain teachings have been so ingrained in you.
   
   We have a great relationship with our son and are thankful he will share exactly what he is feeling. We continue to pray for him.
   
   One thing I want to ask, last night we were talking and he mentioned about how people will say, "I've missed two weeks of church, I have to get to church." He feels that means they are thinking in a legalistic manner and feeling they have to be in church or the powers that be won't approve. I shared that I love to go to church and if I said that, it would mean that I really want to go to church. I can see how he is filtering things like this through the legalistic filter. Do you have any suggestions as to how we best may encourage him? Thank you!

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     rob war April 15, 2015 Reply

     He probably shouldn't worry if others may say that they missed Church a couple weeks and then state that they need to go. I wouldn't assume that they are speaking this out of legalism but maybe more out of the fact that they miss Church and want to go. That may not be out of legalism but out of just missing going. I think one can get too caught up in worrying about legalism that when people swing in the other direction and look at everything at legalistic when it is not. No one should look at or try to judge the motives or reasoning of others in how they are practicing their faith. Attending Church on Sunday is a pretty basic practice of all Christians everywhere and through 2000 years. I would probably encourage him that he shouldn't focus on the reasons or motives of others in why they go to Church and leave that in God's hands where it should belong. If he falls into inspecting the behind the reason choices of others, he should remind himself that this belongs to God and it is none of anyone's business.

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       LJ April 15, 2015 Reply

       Thanks, Rob! That was along the lines of what I was thinking. It's so hard to watch him struggle but believe he will come out stronger in the end. Thankful we can bring our concerns to the Lord in prayer.

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     Ileata April 16, 2015 Reply

     I'm sorry your son is struggling with that, but how wonderful that you are trying to help him recover grace! Many of us have had to read the Bible in a different translation to get around the ingrained teachings. A book that really, really helped me is "The Grace Awakening" by Charles Swindoll. It's on RG's recommended reading list.

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     Lindsey April 17, 2015 Reply

     LJ,
     I am the child of legalistic parents. My advice is just to be around him as a loving and sane Christian. I have not been to church in years, but one reason I have not jettisoned my faith is that I encounter a few Christians who seem to "get it." It's one of the reasons I come to this site.
     
     I often think about my grandfather, who had a profound understanding of grace. I think, "There are so many terrible churches and horrible Christians, but at least I knew my grandfather."
     
     Maybe over time, your son will heal partly by observing your example as a Christian. He will say, "Those legalists were a pain, but I know from my parent it is possible to heal. I have seen proof that a person can recover and that non-legalistic Christians exist."
     
     I wish you well.

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       rob war April 18, 2015 Reply

       The Church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints. I always keep this in mind when encountering other Christians.

8. 

   Alan Black July 3, 2015 Reply

   I just love that moment when you are reading something and thinking i need to call so and so and tell them to read this......only to get to the bottom of the page and discover they are the author!! Good job and well said....

9. 

   sarahh September 5, 2015 Reply

   You are so not alone in this. I don't think I will ever have the strong sense of shared purpose and community that I did in high school or college. I am beginning to make peace with this. Great post! Also I was never involved in ATI. Just your average christian who ended up AT RG via binge watching the duggars while nursing my second child. So much here is applicable to loss of community and belonging to similar communities that share some language but different meanings. I loved this post.

10. 

    L August 11, 2023 Reply

    Hello, Ileata,
    
    Wow.
    
    I've been searching for help understanding WHY I feel uncomfortable at times in the church we've been attending for the last year. I think it's a good church, not toxic like my growing up and early young adult churches. I'd assumed my sadness was simply due to profoundly missing the liturgy and musical genre/style of the church we left after 12 or so years - they sadly began teaching and preaching some distinctly unbiblical ideas about a particular area. 😓
    
    We found this new church. And then discovered it is a hybrid of the two similar denominations with which we (my spouse and I) grew up. My heart dropped a bit.
    
    Then I began counseling with a licensed, trauma-informed therapist for help with some separate current life issues. Eventually discovered current issues related to growing-up stuff, and as we dug deeper, I began to remember the profound influence IBLP and BG had on my parents and others in those childhood and young adult churches. I left that way of thinking and being many years ago. Unfortunately I am discovering that some of its tentacles still have lain buried deep within my deepest and most unvoiced beliefs about myself.
    
    The last couple of weeks I have felt very unwilling to be in church. I've been trying to put words to why. Your words are helping. It's not necessarily that THIS church is like my growing up and young adult churches. But, there are enough reminders by way of denominational association and some other practices that, combined with my current emotional sensitivity and rawness from the trauma therapy process, I hear certain words or phrases and can't help recoiling. Not to mention that the expectations implicitly stated in the songs is one of constant praise and trust. Our old church included a fair bit of lament in their music. I cannot sing the songs in our current place, and trying to do so feels like I'm lying.
    
    Thanks for your writing.