The Principle of Self-Doubt

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The Principle of Self-Doubt

The Principle of Self-Doubt

20 October 2014, 06:24

I have been reading articles on Recovering Grace for a couple of years now, and the testimonies of others have been powerful tools for personal healing and for re-evaluating the way I think about life. One of the more common themes that I have seen in the comments on Recovering Grace articles is that people shouldn’t “throw the baby out with the bathwater,” or that the original seminars were great and things only got iffy once ATI started and students were involved with the training centers.

I would argue that this is not the case.

A little background: I never visited a training center. My family never even joined ATI (primarily because I think my parents thought the education provided was laughably substandard). I never owned a white blouse and navy skirt—by the skin on my teeth I resisted. But I did go to several Children’s Institutes and one Basic Seminar. My parents used the Character Sketches as family devotionals. I happily memorized the scripture verses and songs from the Children’s Institutes. We avoided rock music and went to a “Gothard church.” Because my parents planned for all of their children to go to college and didn’t make me wear skirts, we were considered the liberal family at church.

I was very conflicted—I wanted to join ATI during my teen years in order to fit in with my church friends, but some of the things in the Character Sketches and Children’s Institutes really bothered me. I would even argue with my parents over some of the “principles” that seemed hypocritical.

But there was one verse, one principle that I unknowingly absorbed and lived out for ten years: “The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). Anyone familiar with the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) knows how this verse is applied in their teachings. According to Gothard, it meant that I was so inherently sinful that I couldn’t trust myself—my thoughts, emotions, or will. My feelings were biased by my baggage and only revealed my baser nature. As a young woman, I should only trust my father and then later my husband. I could never trust myself because I didn’t know what I needed and didn’t know how to protect myself.

When I was 18, I was in a pseudo-courtship (everything was vague and undefined because we were young) for a year. It was a relationship between six people—me, my parents, him, and his parents. I eventually broke it off because God made it clear to me it was not meant to be. But throughout the process, I often felt bullied by his mother. I remember pushing the feeling aside. What did I know? She was far older, much more experienced, and she only wanted to help. The more I stuffed those emotions inside, the more miserable I felt. Still, I believed that emotions, especially mine, were never to be trusted.

A few years later when I was a sophomore in college, I invited a transfer student with whom I was acquainted to share my dorm room. Coincidentally, she felt beaten down by the teachings of IBLP, too. I learned that she had had a very domineering mother who had (perhaps permanently) handicapped her daughter’s conflict and communication skills. I wanted to be her friend, so I rushed into the intimacy of friendship with the girl, even though as I got to know her I didn’t like her very much. I still didn’t trust myself, so I assumed that the numerous red flags I was seeing were just a result of my being selfish and suspicious. By the end of the year, this girl accused me of stealing from her and distracting her from her schoolwork, among other issues. The resident director of our dorm helped engineer enough peace between us to finish the last three weeks of school, and then I tried never to speak to her again. I had been victimized once again by an “unsafe person” because of my failure to trust myself.

It was during the hurt of that ordeal that I ran into the arms of comfort of another abusive “friend.” This friend was emotionally abusive and a master at manipulation. I had a problem of not knowing how to firmly say no, and she could guilt me into doing whatever she wanted. Again, there were red flags, but I had become so entangled in her narcissistic web I didn’t know how to get out without everything blowing up in my face. She even sent me a letter detailing how self-centered and mean I was and that I hadn’t been paying her enough attention. My initial reaction was to feel hurt and offended, but I knew my emotions only ever reflected my sinful desires. I was disinvited from her wedding. I learned of parties I hadn’t been invited to. I saw the look other girls gave me from the half-truths she spread. To this day sometimes I randomly think of her.

As I matured in life and went through my healing process, I tried to think back on what I could have done differently. Some things were simple, like needing to pay very close attention when someone makes blanket claims like “every girl in high school hated me,” or makes statements about how many best friends have come and gone. Others lessons have been more difficult, like learning to say no and refusing to feel guilty for it.

It took me a long time, but I finally found the deeply buried foundational reason why I had ignored red flags for so many years and took to heart whatever people said about me. It was the belief that my heart could not be trusted. I finally connected the dots between this concept, IBLP teachings, and my dependence on others’ opinions of myself. It has been so freeing to finally realize that I can trust the innate senses and warning signs that God gave me for my protection. And while I didn’t meet any of these three people at a seminar, nor as an authority figure at a training center, the dangerous ideas that IBLP planted in my mind held me hostage to the point that I couldn’t defend myself from abusive people—people with their own agendas, their own baggage, and their own issues.

So to those of you that say good things were learned at seminars and Children’s Institutes, or that being loosely involved in the IBLP or ATI organizations won’t hurt you: I must strongly disagree. Even from the sidelines, this non-biblical thinking poisoned my thoughts and put me in harm’s way. I thank God for helping me see the truth, and with His help I will never put myself in a dangerous relationship again.

Michelle left the ultra-conservative religious/homeschool movement to attend college at a mainstream evangelical, liberal arts university, where she learned different ways to approach her faith and better ways to love God and people. She met her husband there, who was public-schooled and had never heard of a Gothardite church. She and her family have talked long about grace, mercy, and mistakes, and she has a wonderful relationship with them, thanks to her parents' honesty and God's goodness. She is currently in graduate school with her husband of two years.

Photo copyright: ribah / 123RF Stock Photo

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

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38 Comments

LynnCD October 20, 2014 Reply

"But there was one verse, one principle that I unknowingly absorbed and lived out for ten years: “The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). Anyone familiar with the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) knows how this verse is applied in their teachings. According to Gothard, it meant that I was so inherently sinful that I couldn’t trust myself—my thoughts, emotions, or will. My feelings were biased by my baggage and only revealed my baser nature. As a young woman, I should only trust my father and then later my husband. I could never trust myself because I didn’t know what I needed and didn’t know how to protect myself."

Yes, 10 times yes. The only way to get guidance is from an authority figure. Never mind that a husband or a father's heart is also deceitful and desperately wicked. Come to think of it, that fact never does come to mind when one is steeped in this teaching. Great article, and thanks for sharing.
rob war October 20, 2014 Reply

Thank-you for this article. I appreciate it because my brush with IBYC was just attending basic and one advanced seminars. I hope to see more articles similar to this that begin to answer Bill's supporters on what is wrong with him and his teaching. Proponents say either he really helped so many so what is your problem or that it must be right because it "works".
The article points out the harm that comes from Bill's scripture twisting and taking verses out of context. This vera from Jeremiah 17 is from a section Jeremiah 17: 5-18 that talks about a contrast between trusting or having faith and reliance on God or trusting in man or oneself as opposed to God. It is similar to Psalm 1 in that sense. The actual verse about the heart should be understood in it's context of the whole section. Why trust or have faith in man or oneself because the "heart" is deceitful as opposed to God. That does not in any way mean what Bill twisted it to which was that people cannot "trust" their own insight, intuition, understand or their own "guts". Our own insight, intuition etc are God given and God gives us those things to guide us along the path of life. The author was lead to believe that she couldn't us her own "guts" about different friends and relationships and had to rely on others who if you follow Bill's logic here are going to have the same problem with their heart and shouldn't be trusting their own "guts" about themselves let alone others. Taking this even further, i would propose that we can't even trust Bill's twisted heart because "it is the most deceitful of all things, desperately sick and who can fathom it?" Bill's target audience of young people really makes this all so sick. Bill seemed to lead people not to trust in themselves, learn to make judgements and understand God. Instead normal human interest and affection are deemed as not trusting or loving God. Yet all these normal and God given human desires, interests, affections are not to be stuffed away in some kind of twisted ideas about oneself. Teaching young people sick and unhealthy ideas shows what is in Bill's own heart and mind and what is there is not healthy in the least bit. And that is putting it mildly.
Anna October 20, 2014 Reply

I grew up on a different background, but was taught the same thing.
I too was involved in manipaoven and abusive relationships because I had absolutely no confidence in my ability to make decisions for myself. Reading this reminded me of that girl. It makes me feel sad, and also determined to protect my daughters from this type of teaching.
esbee October 20, 2014 Reply

Stories like this make me think of how much more grace God gives as we walk, stumble, trip, get up, fall down again, etc through life. At the age of 61 I am getting so much more revelations into grace with stories like this. Wish I had gotten it many years ago...oh that grace was there sure enough but I could not see it as it was overshadowed by the strength of those legalistic teachings that said " these are the principles upon principles, etc you must follow to show God you are a true Christian and that you love Him more than anything in the world."
- GuyS October 20, 2014 Reply
  
  Esbee, "...but I could not see it as it was overshadowed by the strength of those legalistic teachings..." I feel the same way. I trust Him to restore the years the locust has eaten.
  - free of this October 21, 2014 Reply
    
    God is so good to restore. He has been so good to show me the garbage that I not only was fed to me about Him, but about myself. Yes, we were wicked, but when they teach that stuff they also totally forget to teach who God the Father is and that he is our daddy and He loves us soooo much. Getting through this stuff is like being an onion getting peeled off a layer at a time. I threw out everything I had that was BG material or burned it. Literally! It was like having a ball and chain in my house. Now I am so glad that RG has had some of this stuff posted so now with clarity and some good understanding I can see his stuff without owning it and actaully see all the error I was fed.
TammyToo October 20, 2014 Reply

I was not raised in IBLP, nor have I (or my parents) ever attended any of the seminars. In fact, I hadn't even heard of Bill Gothard until recently. But suppose I had been raised in these teachings. Suppose I had been taught to believe Jeremiah 17:9 meant I could never trust my own heart or intuition. In that case, when I was eleven years old and an elderly male neighbor tried to get me to sit on his lap as he grabbed at me, I would have done so instead of listening to my heart and running away from him. I would have been trained to ignore the sense of danger God instilled in me for my own protection. Likely, I would now be a victim of sexual abuse. That is scary. That is where the danger in this kind of false teaching lies.

My prayers continue for all of you spiritual "burn" victims as Jesus continues to "graft" his healing truth into your wounded hearts. Much love from a fellow burn victim coming from the IFB side of abuse.
David October 20, 2014 Reply

If we are to listen to Bill Gothard and his teaching on authority, then it was wrong to overthrow Hitler, because all authority is instituted by God. We should have appealed to him and when he said no we should have submitted to him for the consequences as unto God -- and then waited. The worst effect of Gothard's authority teaching is that it destroys Jesus and the ONE Mediator between God and man for the believer because it interjects ANOTHER mediator between yourself and God -- your supposed authority. That teaching is also wicked because it creates a way for evil to prevail without resistance -- makes people think that submitting to all manner of evil and abuse is God's will. In the end, this wicked principle makes evil and abuse God's will and makes the one abused to be the victim. People can debate forever about this or that detail on this matter, but when all is said and done, this false teaching is a corrupted picture of God, and as I said, strikes at the heart and core of Christianity, which is the personal, one-on-one relationship with God for the believer through Christ alone. THAT is simply not possible if this teaching is practiced.
- Bev October 21, 2014 Reply
  
  David, I actually DO remember the subject of Hitler and authority from my time in IBLP, though whether the words came directly from Gothard, his teaching, or those in the program I don't remember exactly. But basically it was taught that the reason so many assassination attempts failed on Hitler is because they were going up against someone in authority and God was not honoring their attempts to remove him from authority. Dietrich Bonhoeffer wasn't exactly applauded in our circles---I can't remember if he was mentioned in a Wisdom Booklet, but I definitely don't remember studying his biography or reading much about him until after leaving IBLP. I do believe the general opinion in IBLP circles towards assassination attempts on Hitler was that no matter how ungodly or evil a person is, you don't try to remove them by force. Abusive leaders just LOVE Gothard's principle of authority, because they can never be ousted! What a deal! :-P
  - rob war October 21, 2014 Reply
    
    Dietrich Bonhoeffer should be required reading for every Christian. There are many many Christians in Europe that civilly disobeyed Hitler and Naziism in a number of areas. I think of Corrie Ten Boom whose family started hiding Jews in their home. Her story "The Hiding Place" is incredible. When I was going to the IBYC seminars, I was also reading Francis Schaffer's books which in "Christian Manifesto" encouraged civil disobedience in a number of incidences. I think Bill may have known or talk to the late Francis Schaffer because I remember mentioning him at one point. He said that because Francis Schaffer was an Christian apologist, his study of other non-Christian ideas and philosophies were beginning to affect his mind so this is why Christians should not study these things. Quite a back handed way to slap someone. I think Francis Schaffer used Dietrich Bonhoeffer as a model from WW II.
  - David Pigg October 21, 2014 Reply
    
    The Nuremburg Trials were held in Nov. of 1946,to try Hitler's Henchmen for "crimes against humanity".Such lesser known Nazis as Joachim Von Ribbentrop,Fritz Pappen,Rudolph Hess,Fritz Sauckel,and Martin Bormann,whom the allies thought was alive but was in fact dead;these were tried and many got the death sentence.Evidently Gothard must have believed this verdict unfair.The defendants held onto "only obeying orders",as their chief defense,a coverup that seemed to mask complicity,and intmidation of their superiors.Its in the sick world of Bill Gothard,that any authority,for its legitimcy has a moral right to intimidate its inferiors,browbeat,threaten,castigate,and manipulate.All in the name of what kingdom?Certainly isn't God's
    - MatthewS October 21, 2014
      
      I think the impression I had was more along the lines of sense that it would be clear-cut when you are being asked to do something wrong, and in that case you would deliver the perfect appeal which would usually be honored but even if it weren't, then you should suffer for doing right instead of wrong. There was lip service to the idea that "just following orders" is not an excuse but any real-world help in knowing how to stand up to authorities was sorely lacking. The "How to make an appeal" booklet with a donkey (seemingly a reference to Balaam's donkey) on the cover would be what Gothardites would point to as the instruction for that, but that thing is worse than unhelpful.
    - rob war October 21, 2014
      
      yes, Bill equated and gave equal weight to all authority. I think he based that on the centurion, a "man under authority" which when Bill taught it in his seminars meant that to have great faith, you had to be under authority. The problem is that the centurion was recognizing that Jesus is the ultimate and final authority. The centurion recognized who Jesus is, the Son of God. It wasn't an authority for the sake of authority and that any authority no matter who is in it, needs to be obeyed and heeded. Bill also ignores 2000 years of Christian martyrdom, in that the first 300 years after Christ, it was illegal to be a Christian. I would suppose that in Bill's mind, these early Christians didn't make the "wise appeal" which would have saved their lives or displayed the right attitude towards their "authorities" which resulted in their deaths.
    - Don Rubottom October 22, 2014
      
      Let's don't go too far here. Justin Martyr's appeal to Caesar in the 2nd century is still with us and it is a classic. From the apostles on the attitude was "obey God rather than man" in cases of conflict, but yet they would walk the second mile with the Roman soldier's gear in order to bear witness to Jesus.
      I believe the error iss teaching that God will bless you THROUGH your evil authorities (lie) instead of God blessing you IN SPITE OF your evil authorities. And why? The blessing is not to reward you, but to glorify Jesus in us. The authority teaching was all part of a works based system, ignoring Jesus's clear teaching that there is no reward for doing what you are obligated to do. The gross evil was the creation and empowerment of positions of "authority" instead of humble servant leaders who lead by example, overflowing in mercy, acknowledging their inadequacies. We got lording it over by whitewashed tombs.
      The fact that "Anger Seminars" were even needed should have been a hint that something was off!
GuyS October 20, 2014 Reply

Michelle, Thanks for such a great article. There were a lot of thoughts you had at a young age, that I also had. Even though I was 10-25 years older physically, so many of your responses resonated with me.

"I was very conflicted...I remember pushing the feeling aside. What did I know?...the more miserable I felt. Still, I believed...It was the belief that my heart could not be trusted...what I could have done differently...the dangerous ideas that IBLP planted in my mind held me hostage...this non-biblical thinking poisoned my thoughts and put me in harm’s way."

Michelle, if you had any doubts about the significance of this short article, with no Greek or Hebrew, and only one simple verse that your testimony revolved around, put those doubts to bed.

Four days ago on another thread I wrote, "Sometimes, I feel there is no way to discuss details that are layered in both messed up theology and convoluted dishonest reasoning..." Today, your straightforward article made it to my top 5 articles I can point to. The simple elegance of your article is brilliant!
KateL October 21, 2014 Reply

As to navy skirts and blouses, you "resisted by the skin of your teeth" and yet, you swallowed an idea of "my thoughts, feelings and opinions are worthless." What? One sounds like a strong, thinking, independent person, the other, totally not! You would argue concepts with your parents, and yet, so easily bowed to every other person's thoughts because you thought they must surely be right? And this is all the same person?!
- LynnCD October 21, 2014 Reply
  
  You must have missed where she said she felt very conflicted. That means, yes, she was the same person who was trying to deal with a lot of confusion with respect to supporting IBLP programs while noting the flaws in much of the teaching. Eventually, the authoritarian teaching based on taking the verse from Jeremiah too far, took root in her mind, until, thankfully, she was freed from this mental bondage.
  - MatthewS October 21, 2014 Reply
    
    well said, LynnCD. I very much identify with the experience of being inconsistent and confused in my thinking. There was a constant and pervasive sense given that your own responses are not to be trusted and so for the most part you silence your internal warnings and you cooperate, and yet, those warnings don't completely die and once in a while they go off and bug you.
  - GuyS October 21, 2014 Reply
    
    LynnCD and MatthewS, your comments fit nicely with the seven phrases I copied to my comment above. They show a common theme we all experienced. So hard for an outsider to believe.
kevin October 22, 2014 Reply

Micah Murray of Redemption Pictures nails it again. Micah grew up in ATI and worked at HQ. He now sees it for the cult that it is and has written about his experience previously. In this article, he does not mention IBLP or Gothard by name, but that is clearly his reference point.

http://redemptionpictures.com/2014/10/22/when-we-throw-stones/

My favorite segment:

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

"But when Jesus said these words, he wasn’t talking about protecting abusive religious leaders from accountability. He was talking about protecting vulnerable people from abusive religious leaders."

Someone over here at RG (Mathew?) made that same point several months ago. I lose count of how many times I've heard the throwing stones argument from Gothard defenders.

Also:

Why don’t you just get over it?

"I’m trying. It will take time. You don’t undo twenty years of violence against the soul in a moment, or in a prayer.

But also –

Why should I “get over it” when the cycle is being repeated over and over? The same leader back with a fresh song and dance. A brief apology tour and a slick rebranding."

Another excellent point, no doubt referring to Gothard re-branding himself and back at it.
- Don Rubottom October 23, 2014 Reply
  
  Kevin, thank you for the link to Micah's writing. I find it very real and true. That post was spot on. However, I could not help but notice he has also waded into some cultural controversies that seem incapable of resolution by mere discussion. I was tempted to offer a thought or two but I know it would be misapprehended by Micah's readers.
  Without discussing subjects that are outside this thread, I thank God that His Full Redemption is ahead of us and it is not dependent on my words or my deeds. It. Is. Finished.
nicole gardner October 25, 2014 Reply

The best-put insight and narrative I've ever seen on the playing out of cognitive crippling is by Lizzie. (It's the 2nd ranked piece on RG's top 25 most-read). One amazing thing about it is how brilliantly this gal's light shines after being put under a bushel by the very hands of Gothard himself. God redeems!!! I believe God also created Lizzie with great wisdom for such a time as this. That Gothard persisted in physically bullying someone of her caliber (her being someone that G. himself identified as being above average on multiple counts) absolutely cinches it that he makes his picks among thousands. And also that he has done this to many, MANY more, because not many people (myself included) have the faculties Lizzie now has developed the recovery of that were then stunted/arrested.

I am so glad she's no longer a minor and has apparently broken free of Gothard's despising of youth that has rendered to him the silent subjection of so many children over the years. After all, Paul's instruction to Timothy in not letting anyone despise his youth (1 Tim. 4:12) centered on him being heard as he spoke the truth. Lizzie presents a gem in rising to Paul's calling. It is just as needful today as it was then; IBLP teaching alone (ATI is foreign to me) has it that kids are to hang their heads and shuffle their feet before Gothard's wagging tongue. Then, to solicit all guiding truth for their lives from adults he had previously enlisted or is simultaneously commissioning to be purveyors of his opinion. All because kid's youth is despicable.

Lizzie's content, logic, and presentation FAR outshine anything I ever heard Gothard say. Agreement should be had with the apostle Paul: Right handling of truth should be a higher determinant of truth's acceptance than any bias against youth by which Gothard already despises any such one who wishes to speak to it.

Self-doubt is a biggie among the burdens strapped on people in the IBLP sessions that is hard to shake. Even after I realize this dolled-out burden's comparative rarity in that it's something Gothard never even poked with his finger. Or his toe. Too bad he didn't refrain from touching alot else by exercising the same elite disdain with which he shunned the burdens that are his production's main yield.

Lizzie's account is about self-doubt; what caused it, what it did to cripple her, and stating these truths sets her free from these bonds by the very nature of doing so.
Sharon October 25, 2014 Reply

One of the problems with the Jeremiah 17:9 principle is that it is not balanced with other scriptural truths, especially ones from the New Testament. For instance, I Cor 2:

"'What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him' --these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit...The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 'For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?' But we have the mind of Christ."

Or I John 2:26-27:

"I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you."

But there has never seemed to be much place in Bill Gothard's theology for the Holy Spirit.
nicole gardner October 25, 2014 Reply

I'm so glad you pointed out these verses that say we shouldn't just resign ourselves to having (had) evil hearts. Along those lines also is:

"I will give them a heart to know Me, for I Am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with their whole heart." Jeremiah 24:7

"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13

Isn't what else God has said, in addition to Jeremiah 17:9, a better frame for it than the one anyone else puts it in?

It would be hard to fulfill this prophecy with a heart so rotten that utilizing it to try and commune with God is just a lost cause. The very fact that God is speaking of His people (let alone assuring them of a promising relationship with Him) means that He's on speaking terms with these same-said people. Or maybe I should say: "Sorry God, You know you really shouldn't be talking to me, I've really felt the gangrene set in. I'll have to fore-go any more of merely taking You at your Word and praying. Just give me memos, formulas from now on, communicated through this go-between who has announced his appointment by You to direct my life. Good-bye for the rest of my life."

I realize that whoever may read this is a person that I'm pointing out these verses to. Thus, I have three fingers (maybe a symbol of the Trinity?) pointing back at me in testament that every word I speak to anyone else GOD HIMSELF will hold me to.

When G. directly quoted this verse (along with thoughts), there were his three fingers pointing back at him every time he aimed his point at anyone. So, how is it that HIS evil heart was fit to direct his OWN life (let alone everybody else's)?!?!?!

The verse he's used to support his reasoning for all others to be disqualified also eliminates him from being qualified.

Thus, it's not his own submission to what Scripture says about evilness of heart that purposes G. in formulating this teaching. His main purpose is to garner submission, both to market himself by claims that families modeling Bible-honoring submission within their units have their success attributable to G., and to keep under him these very customers needed to have his buisness. Thus it IS evilness of heart that purposes G. in quoting Jer. 17:9- the evilness of his OWN heart in twisting that Scripture as means to gain control, maintain control, and thus have his livelihood. All apart from making a living for himself without resorting to this. Let alone making a living that supports a family, also, which, if he had, he would have to follow at least a little of his own rules. Or, then again.... probably he wouldn't.

Anyway, I'm sorry I ever accepted G.'s teaching on this, among others.
- GuyS October 25, 2014 Reply
  
  nicole gardner, "...I've really felt the gangrene set in. I'll have to fore-go any more of merely taking You at your Word and praying. Just give me memos, formulas from now on, communicated through this go-between who has announced his appointment..."
  
  Thank you for this. As I reflect what I went through with BG over the years, your above quote could be inserted and repeated time and time again. And the quote would shed light on what was really going on. It sums up so much. Thank you for your comments. They bring healing. Plus they made me laugh :-)
- GuyS October 26, 2014 Reply
  
  Nicole gardner, 2 and 3 weeks ago there was some discussion here on this video:
  
  http://iblp.org/programs/one-accord-teams/training-sessions/session-1-power-one-accord
  
  Here are some of my thoughts on how I got to crippling self-doubt. (of course, it was not this video I was introduced to in the mid to late 70's, but not much has changed) At :50 seconds into the video, BG says,(note the stuttering)
  
  :50 "So I would like to ask a couple of personal aaa a questions here, to begin with...because aaa this gives us the perspective of whether or not we really do aaa have the potential for a one accord. I've had the great privilege over the last 3 years now to, talk to personally to over 2,000 young people. And one of the questions I like to ask them is aaa: How would you rate your present love for God on a scale of 1 to 10? Aaa so far, only 3 have said 10. And aaa one came back later and said they were not telling me the truth. Aaa because the mm majority were..."1:30
  
  So at the beginning of the video is 40 seconds worth of the set up question which can lead to crippling self-doubt guilt, aka "I've really felt the gangrene set in." Especially if you are young and have a desire to please God. I know this looks way over reactive to others who might not have years of abuse from BG, but it is my perspective.
  
  I did not include the 8 times in 40 seconds he stutters to make fun of BG, only to show what I think is significant in his apparent strategy to come across as humble. It is only later that he becomes the grand inquisitor who has no problem reducing you to tears. First we need to suck you into the works based cult with what looks like a reasonable question...then you will feel the "gangrene set in." You cannot do enough good works, steps, follow 7 principles and so on, to measure up. You just need to step up the pace until your life blows to pieces.
  
  So, in less than 2 minutes, if you are not careful, you begin eating out of his hand. And that smooth reassuring voice lulls you to complacency.
nicole gardner October 25, 2014 Reply

Oh! and also, Jeremiah 31:33-34

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD', for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them", declares the LORD, "For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

I realize that this and the other verses I quoted are spoken to Israel. Nonetheless, the conscience God puts into it's place in us, His writing on the HEART, His personal owning of people as being our God, and us not needing other humans to teach us to know Him in these ways...... all are opportunities received along with salvation.

So, anyone who evangelizes would be offering all these things in offering the gospel, because they are packaged along with the forgiveness that Jesus performed in the Passion. This salvation and all it signifies is for everyone. Even if G. were a Messianic Jew, he would have no basis for saying my Gentile heart is rotten and needs to defer to his. (And believe me, I have Jewish friends and they're the least likely people I know to ever pose such a claim).

Also, these same 2 verses are quoted in Hebrews 8:10-12. What immediately follows is:
"When He said, "A new covenant", He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

The cross-reference to this is: "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come." 2 Corinthians 5:17

"Now all these things are from God Who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation......" follows verse 18.

THIS says a LOT about what the Holy Spirit does inside EVERY believer in the GOSPEL! (Gospel as defined above).
nicole gardner October 26, 2014 Reply

I just now read Heather's story, after reading the expose (including all those pages of formulas & character sketches) on the sexual abuse indoctrination, which made me so sick that it put me in the bathroom 3 times with violent flu symptomns. Then, I finally get over those, come out of there and read Heather's story only to find his teachings did absolutely nothing to me, way back when or now, comparatively speaking. (Even though they definitely did, way back when and then some).

It's just that I cannot even wrap my brain around what she went through, then I read in the comments that it was not only a readily imaginable, but an entirely typical P.T.S.D. flashback series
of many A.T.I. survivors.

Words fail me.
- kevin October 26, 2014 Reply
  
  And the wonderful thing is that our hero is back at it again, ugh! After stepping down for less than three months for his inappropriate behavior, he is now launching another ministry. It makes me feel sick too! He has no clue what trauma he has caused to these women. He is totally unrepentant.
nicole gardner October 27, 2014 Reply

I am avidly concerned to learn that he's doing anymore peddling of anything Bible-sounding. If it has a new name, though, people will still recognize the name Bill Gothard. That name, I think, has been even more marketed in his attempt to be known around the world. Still though, kids won`t know the name, and the kids he's marketed to probably aren't allowed to Google anything. You know, probably the 1% of families currently re-enrolled in ATI don`t even have a computer in the home; otherwise they'd have a massive plethora of firsthand experiences at their fingertips to help `em steer clear.

Right now I'm thinking of C.P.S and even adult protective services. I was 17 before I even went through my 1st IBLP, my mom was in her 40's, and it was still a blighting suppressor of our faith.

If I hear of anybody getting sucked in anymore by him, I will likely contact social services regarding that particular instance.
nicole gardner October 27, 2014 Reply

GuyS:
I just now found your post of yesterday, am gonna watch the video in a min. but have to say: I remember that portion of IBLP video just from reading your transcription of it! That is SO true of how it works- the accusation, the conviction, the condescend, (esp. about one kid even "lying" that they weren't lower than bg's expectation). Then, this indebtedness making a person destitute before Bg and whatever he offers as the one bringing them (us) to "realization".

Then, instead of offering God's solution (the Gospel) in the name of Jesus, he offers a different solution in his own name. And it doesn't point to God AT ALL. Just to him.

Remember also how he would break from talking about whatever his "rhemas" were to state the actual scholarly fact concerning the Bible, that being that the #7 is the # of completion? I wonder if, since his formula's are what he presents in lieu of God's Gospel or God's nature, he was trying to present them as divine (perfect) in their own right.

Am gonna watch video now, thank-you for insights/resource.
- GuyS October 27, 2014 Reply
  
  nicole gardner, "...SO true of how it works- the accusation, the conviction, the condescend..." Yes. That works really good if you are emotionally young and vulnerable as you are seeking God.
  
  "...Then, instead of offering God's solution (the Gospel) in the name of Jesus..." Yes, I agree. I would go so far as to say BG's original question gets you looking the wrong way.
  
  BG's question: "How would you rate your present love for God on a scale of 1 to 10?"
  
  Sample Gospel centered question: "How would you rate the amount God loves you on a scale of 1 to 10?"
  
  I am sure there are other sample Gospel centered questions that might be used. That is the first on I thought of. Thanks for your insight.
nicole gardner October 27, 2014 Reply

K, that's all of Bg I can stand, lol. It's like as if someone that I'd just been introduced to said "You know, we as a society have impediments that tend to prevent from being healthy as a society. For instance, do you think of yourself as fit and trim? Then, before I can think of what diet, fitness center or nutritionist to offer as reference point: "Because getting healthy is a collective goal and everybody's doing that at my Fat Farm. I'm personally plea-ing with you to get with it." If I say no, referencing another option, it's because I just wanna be a fatso and fail the rest of society who is all joining his Fat Farm.

Is what he actually does really any more appropriate than this analogy?
- GuyS October 27, 2014 Reply
  
  nicole gardner, "Is what he actually does really any more appropriate than this analogy?" Yes, that is a great analogy. Bg is inappropriate on so many levels. I think BG has begun his "grooming" in less than 2 minuets from the start of the video. There is no good that comes from his "grooming," only inappropriate bondage.
nicole gardner October 27, 2014 Reply

One more thing i forgot: the peer pressure he creates to effect his manipulation. HE DOESN`T ENGAGE IN ONE-ON-ONE, or even in conversations, to sell his stuff! He's behind the mic, which is to say, he's behind the wheel and alone takes the communication only where HE wants to go.

One thing that makes him different from a pastor sermonizing to a congregation that holds accountable: Bg has only spoken to random individuals/families who may be bumping into each other for the 1st & last time. They're under the same roof with a similar objective just the same as those filling the stadiums of a sporting event may be. (Who knows, maybe something worth attention has come to town). No wonder that it's during the 1st one or 2 minutes that he delivers what he, previously unknown, uses this pinnacle of audience-focus to say. He eludes to the need for unity among Christians. AS THOUGH THERE'S NECESSITY of assuming an ongoing, networked collusion of effort by this particular collection of people in ONE ACCORD with his lifelong leading (all of us being newly informed that we're "lifelong alumna").

Then, he puts focus each on ourselves for not being a perfect 10. Then, he brings it back to: "You wouldn't settle with your status quo of cumulatively weighing down the group along with yourself in the comparative weigh-in (of sin)? Or are you not going to tell the truth about the number on your personal scale? (hint: it's NOT an auto-scaling- it's Bg's set expectation measured in HIS terms by HIS reading. Reading into it heavily). That would meet with the need to confess to me." Hence, there's accountability TO HIM to answer according to HIS standard of measure. And concerning each one's relationship with God, no less.

He's insinuated that he'll lead all of who are now subjected to his sales-pitch out of sloth (collective sloth, now that we've agreed to set ourselves in his comparison to each other). I was afraid I would be the one person tipping that scale, the one person failing amidst his group, all else in One Accord with becoming people are supposed to be. Even though I and the people I was sitting amongst hadn't even exchanged a word or even glances. We were just supposed to stare up at the screen at this man who had stated an assumed pre-eminance over this number of persons. He utilized peer pressure without his audience even interacting with one another. AND, without any of the individuals he had just set opposite each other even indication at all that we'd subscribed to his mode of comparison. We never even actually got to speak to whether or not we wanted to be rating on his personal barometer, let alone on a comparison. Who can say that ALL of one's heart, soul, mind, and strength measures a "10", anyway? There isn't a blood-pressure cuff for love. If there was, 10 would be limiting, because Jesus is the human "all" of love, and his love already blew any supposed set maximum.

Bg's question begged accountability. But accountability that only the Lord rightly has. It's interesting that Bg didn't say, "I want each of you to think on whether or not you love Jesus enough." This would leave Jesus right where He is as the standard of love (provided Bg hadn't already manipulated this subject in 2 other ways.) And even though the answer of whether or not I love Jesus enough is "no" (since the gold standard is Jesus' infinite love), this question still doesn't achieve Bg's purpose in asking. After all, it would be having Jesus in the equation to ask that. And having Jesus' love in it, too. And, worse, would call attention to the fact that Jesus' love is so much greater than mine or anyone else's.

Bg packaged his own different question so that if I answered HIS the same way it's true just between me & the Lord, it would be an assent to Bg that I'm wanting. Which plays right into his hands; he doesn't want to bring people to the point where we see we're wanting of Jesus' love and then -even while getting it- are yet wanting in how much we love Him back. He needed (needs?) people to somehow fathom a perfect standard of human love (a perfect 10 is his visualization). Then how, in seeing how we come short of it, we must, we must, we must..... all together now, since Bg is our leader, he gave us the measure of perfect achievement, it's 10! He owns the standard and revealed it to us!! All we have to do is reach perfection, and we'll have achieved that 10.

Thanks to Jesus, and the Bible, and those who seek Him/it rather than to twist Him/it...... I'm noticing the lies about Him and His Word.
Anthony E. October 29, 2020 Reply

I understand many people fall into this kind of confusing situation. The heart is deceitful indeed because we are humans with so many weaknesses. The best you can do is to fully rely on God for his protection and direction. Though you may be weak and vulnerable to the effects of negative emotions.

But the grace of God has already made you right with him. If you fully depend on God, there is no way you will feel inferior or lost. I don't have a problem with you not trusting yourself. You feel insecure when you choose to make critical decisions.

Your inexperience in life will change the moment you start searching for guidance based on sound Biblical doctrines. "Do not be afraid" has been recorded in the Bible more than 300 times. Getting the right leader can help you find the true path. However, there is no need to lose confidence in yourself. God is already with you.

"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness" (Romans 6:17-18).
kevin January 25, 2021 Reply

Listen to Emily tell her story on this podcast. I am thankful for all of the brave women, in the strength that they showed in coming forward. Their bold actions resulted in real change happening. I really hope that the website moderators will post these podcasts on the landing of the website:

Thriving Forward: Emily’s Fight for Justice Against IBLP and Bill Gothard - Part One

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNDM4NDU4NC9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVk/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9hcGkuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL2VwaXNvZGUvNDIzNTIxNDI
- Rachel March 10, 2021 Reply
  
  Thanks so much for posting this link Kevin. I hadn't heard of this podcast before.

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