The GOTHARD Files: The Basic Problem

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The GOTHARD Files: The Basic Problem

The GOTHARD Files: The Basic Problem

24 February 2014, 06:00

Editor’s Note: Previously, we explored events surrounding the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts (IBYC) scandal that culminated in 1980 with Bill Gothard’s resignation and quick reinstatement as president of that organization, which would later be renamed the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP). You can read the Introduction here, Part One here, Part Two here, and a chronology of the scandal here.

In our research for these articles, we have worked with a group of former IBYC staffers, volunteers, and associates who witnessed these events firsthand. In addition to the group’s first-person accounts of the scandal and surrounding events, they have shared with us a large volume of related documentation. Their memories, notes, and records have allowed us to write about these difficult events with evidence and accuracy.

The following document was written by Dr. Samuel J. Schultz, professor emeritus of Old Testament at Wheaton College, and a member of the IBYC Board during the 1980 scandal. Dr. Schultz was one of three board members who at that time had been a part of the ministry since its inception as “Campus Teams” in 1965. This document was read by Dr. Schultz at a board meeting on December 11, 1980. Present at the meeting were Dr. Gus Hemwall, Bill Gothard, Rev. W. Hamilton Sinclair, Mr. Fred Wardle, Dr. Roy Blackwood, and Mr. John DeBoer. The discussion which followed this reading culminated with Dr. Schultz stating that he could no longer remain a member of the board.

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

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186 Comments

B Allison February 24, 2014 Reply

To me, it seems as if very humble men tried to point out to BG the error of his ways over and over and he was in teachable over and over. He also either blatantly lies or somehow tells such partial truths that one is left wondering how he can have a "clear conscience."

For those wondering why it matters to "dredge up" old papers and old news...it matters because the same unteachable attitude and covering up of abuse and sin, still exist in BG and the "ministry."

Also, for those who point to good fruit from ATI, as others have wisely noted, any fruit is God's kindness and mercy and a sign of His gracious Sovereignty and how He can "use what others meant for evil, for good." The Larne family is an example of this. However, we are not without scars.

It is important to remember to be gentle with others as they heal. By Christ dying for us, we have each been extended much grace.

His kindness is what helps us repent and I pray for that for Mr. Gothard and the remaining board members and parents who continue to defend ATI in spite of the glaring red flags.

To those who have commented that they believe some stories but don't believe others, I would submit to you that that is a very hurtful and undeserved remark. Evidence abounds if you but open your eyes.

Lastly, please realize there is a difference between abuse and sin.

Yes. The ground is level at the foot of the cross. We are all sinners saved by grace. But not every sinner is a criminal, or a molester or someone who takes advantage of young women.

The women in the Northwoods would have had a difficult time escaping without access to a car, a cell phone, email, any outside friends or any money. Were they raped? I don't know. But the character sketches and the teachings from BG on how women must cry out are making me very sad as we all learn more of what was actually going on.

RG is helping to speak for those who have not had a voice. BG has had a powerful voice for a long time. Though I will continue to pray for God's mercy, there comes a time when stones must "cry out."

We, who have suffered, and I don't use that term lightly, are beginning to be heard.

I am just grateful that God has heard every cry, all along.

If there is ever a question of which side is right, and I don't think there should be doubt in anyone's mind...but if there is, God's Word is pretty clear that God makes His dwelling with the broken and contrite.

Some of us have been so broken by years of abuse that I believe God's patience (though incredible) has limits. I would always rather align myself with those who have been downtrodden...the ones nobody else seems to see or hear.

Thank you, RG, for all you have done.

Though you can't give us our lives back, God is my loving, kind, beautiful One and He has and will continue to "restore the years the locusts have eaten."
- DAVID PIGG February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Thank you B.Allison,wonderfully written,well done,and well thought out.HEARTBREAKING.In Rev.2:15 Christ used the word Nicolaitans,no explanation except whose teachings and actions Jesus Himself hates.In the book The Orthodoxy of the Church by Watchman Nee,and I'm not particularly a Nee promoter,Nee describes quite accurately that the word means "to conquer the people".This article expresses amoung other things that that is precisely what Bill Gothard did.He wore the board down and conquered them.He conquered me,At least for a while,and conquered the helpless, the trampled,and abused.Women,children.I was saved by the Jesus People movement of the early 70s,a movement for the most part outside the organized church,discredited now;somewhat scorned at that time by mainstream society.If you will we were the shepherds relegated to the back field.What Gothardism did here is exploit with his clean cut "legitimate" authority us Jesus People,brought us under his despotic bondage,conquered us.We started out in the spirit,and were not,not,absolutely not made perfect in the flesh.Parental authority is not on the same level as God.Gothard conquered us with it.With his image,with his beastly "mark."For the first time I read in this article,he tried to conquer with bribes.Dollars in exchange for souls."Hush money".He ceated a caste system,cruelly neglecting the very nature of our vunerable sheeplike ways.As Larne Gabriel well put it image is everything.Not quite.
- Timothy Baldridge February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  B Allison, thank you for comments. It's an encouragement to see you write these things. I look back fondly at our conversations 8-10 years ago.
  - Brieta Allison February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    I don't recall ever speaking with you. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?
    - Timothy Baldridge February 25, 2014
      
      Yeah, I think so, I was thinking of a Bob Allison I knew once.
- Paul VA March 6, 2014 Reply
  
  Your comment about "good fruit" is well made. Most cults manufacture an atmosphere of kindness and have tons of good things to say. I'm sure if you spent a few days with the JWs or Mormons or any other similar group you could fill notebooks of good teachings, illustrations, and ideas like we all did around Bill.
  
  I've also been reflecting on Bill had this way of taking something that was either true or partially true and then present it in a way that it was his discovery...his truth. Much more than having a thought that is then a person's intellectual property it had a sense of "come to me...come to the waters and drink." Masterful narcissism.
  
  Thankfully my family had backed off some over the years and now are seeing the evil in BG but back in the day I would have been shocked if we came home from a seminar and either mom or dad had said something like "great seminar but I disagree with one thing he said." There was an unwritten rule that you never were to disagree with any of it. I hope Christian's in all contexts can see that that is a clear red flag in any human context be it a pastor, teacher or leader.
Myron Horst February 24, 2014 Reply

Thank you for sharing this document. I remember in the mid 1980's Bill would trot out his father at the one day minister seminars to share something with us pastors. I thought it was a nice gesture on Bill's part. Now after reading this document, I realize it was part of the coverup to make everything look okay.

Bill has "pulled the wool over our eyes" for many years.

God likens people to sheep. There are many similarities between people and sheep including this one of having “the wool pulled over one’s eyes”. When we were shearing sheep last spring, one of the guys took a sheep that he had just finishing shearing. She was relaxed from the shearing process, and he gently laid her head down on the shearing board and covered her face with wool. She laid there on her side, almost perfectly still with no one holding her for five to ten minutes while we went to get a camera and took pictures of her. It is not natural for a sheep to lay still in that position with no one holding them. The instant the wool was removed from her eyes, she jumped up and ran off. The same is true of people. When they have “the wool pulled over their eyes” they willingly submit to the bondage that others place them under. Others looking on wonder why would such intelligent people willingly allow someone to put them under unnecessary bondage and they not reject the bondage. The people with the wool over their eyes have been rendered helpless and need to have someone help them by removing the wool from their eyes and showing them God’s truth. God says “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” Hosea 4:6

Thank you RG for sharing the documents and each one who has shared their testimonies and removed the wool from our eyes.
TiaraLi February 24, 2014 Reply

Thank you for sharing this. It is good to see that so many people have tried so hard to go to Bill personally and fix the issue. It's now thirty years later, and we are still seeing the same behaviour. This isn't a mistake someone has made, this is a deliberate persistence in harmful behaviours by somebody who thinks that they will not be held accountable for their actions.
guest February 24, 2014 Reply

Thank you, B Allison. It sounds as though you have experienced enough to know what you're talking about, and I'm glad you're speaking up. We started the program years ago close to the beginning, stayed on the margins for awhile, and moved on, mainly because we wanted a better education for our family, and also because the ATIA families were getting more and more isolated and came across as cold and unloving, at least it seemed that way to us. Even as we moved on we really didn't know the scope of what we were leaving. I pray for you and others……. thank you. God's grace is overwhelming.
Lauren February 24, 2014 Reply

Thank you for continuing to publish things like this. Though hard to read, these documents reinforce the sad reality that these patterns of behavior essentially never changed. Having worked with Bill off and on for more than 17 years (1993 - 2010), I observed his duplicity frequently. Long before I stepped away from the "ministry" I learned to view his leadership as a telling example of what "not" to do.

B Allison ... AMEN!
David February 24, 2014 Reply

Observations:
(1) I find it a little amazing that people accuse Bill of not following his own seminar principles -- especially the authority principle. He doesn't. But the real problem here is NOT merely that Bill doesn't practice what he preaches. Rather, the problem is that what he preaches is ERROR. I'm glad that was also brought out. But the fact that Gothard's entire system is glued together by this authority principle, and that he himself deliberately and knowingly refuses to follow it, is simply proof that Gothard KNOWS it is error. He would gladly submit to it otherwise.
(2) For those who continually demand Matt. 18 -- it is clear that all of those principles were followed again and again -- to no avail. This is a 40 year problem. Not merely a recent one.
(3) These are the actions of a liar, manipulator, and one who will do anything he can to keep power. Gothard fans cannot fathom that because they believe they have been blessed. But any of us can be deceived. Here it is writing from people who know -- along with hundreds of other testimonies. How many witnesses are needed?
(4) Bill Gothard teaches the legalistic heresy that he teaches because, "a man's morality dictates his theology." His seminar is a reflection of his personal relationship with God. His relationships with others reflect the same.
(5) God has once again brought LIGHT upon this ministry for the purpose of opening the eyes of people who are willing to see. For those who are not willing to see, there isn't much else that can be said. This is a cult. There is a spirit of deception and control. If Bill's conduct was crystal pure, the teaching would still be heresy. But it never works that way, does it?
- DAVID PIGG February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  what David says
- MatthewS February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  "But the fact that Gothard's entire system is glued together by this authority principle, and that he himself deliberately and knowingly refuses to follow it, is simply proof that Gothard KNOWS it is error. He would gladly submit to it otherwise. "
  
  I think that's the issue: the product he is selling does not work, and he knows it. The second part of that sentence is important. If you only say "it doesn't work," you get this: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/Letter-from-Bill-Gothard.pdf (linked by the response to it: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/01/a-response-to-bill-gothard/), which is essentially, "you are just bitter and addicted to rock and porn." It's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question. It shuts down the conversation.
  
  I was raised in this stuff. Sometimes I still find myself wondering, asking little questions. The fact that Bill himself flaunted his own system, that he knew it wouldn't work so he didn't even try it, that speaks volumes to me. The system falls under its own weight. Everyone else that tried it and found it wanting would assume that Bill did it right, and it worked for him. He was supposed to be the exemplar, the trailblazer, the guide with the map.
- Mark R February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  And this is why I believe that Gothard's repentance and total removal from IBLP (whether he does so on his own or is ultimately forced out) isn't going to be enough.
  
  The program is rotten to the core.
  
  Nothing less than the total closure of IBLP and its subsidiaries (ALERT, ATIA, et al), AND its COMPLETE withdrawal from any partnerships, joint ventures, affiliates, etc. (such as what may or may not have happened with Oak Brook College) will solve this problem.
  - Laura February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    AMEN Mark! It should all cease to exist. There is nothing worthy of redemption when founded on a lie.
Stevemidkiff February 24, 2014 Reply

The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Stevemidkiff February 24, 2014 Reply

The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
You become like what you react to. BG is dismissive of those who don't lock step with him and RG may lack capacity for a challenge also
- Lori February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Eh. Pop psychology.
  - Shane February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Steve, be careful- you're reacting. Oh, and now I'm reacting.
- "Hannah" February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  "You become like what you react to." Like so much of what Bill says, this is also not biblical. Otherwise, Jesus would have become like Herod, the Pharisees, and the moneychangers in the temple.
  - greg r February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    ZING.... but it seemed so biblical..
greg r February 24, 2014 Reply

Wow... refer to this when someone wants to know why someone on the inside didn't try to do something. Two statements stood out to me:

1)Schultz saying that "no man and no ministry is idespensable"
guess Bill didn't get that memo

2)Schultz saying that Bill had never demonstrated that he was under the authority of the board (given the fact that there exists a righteous way to be under authority, not Bill's way, but there is a way: this tells me that both the "orthodoxy" wasn't... and the "orthopraxy" wasn't . Let's not give him a stike three.
- greg r February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  OOOPs: third thing that stood out
  
  3)Gothard's teaching on authority was hotly contested by his own people (Schultz calls for a thorough biblical review from the board) as early as 1980.
Nicole February 24, 2014 Reply

Thank you, RG, for posting this. It speaks to the responsibility, the spiritual maturity, and the optimism of the board -- and that even those who wanted badly to support the ministry could not support Bill Gothard in good conscience. I believe that this document is so important because it may help to speak to many of the parents who have taken Bill at his word when he has portrayed Recovering Grace as a rogue posse of ex-students with an ax to grind. These words may help to show that Bill has had a long history of circumventing rules and manipulating his public relations to discredit anyone who voices concern. I am hopeful that many longtime supporters, eager to give Bill the benefit of the doubt, will be able to recognize themselves in Dr. Shultz's words: that they will identify with his obvious graciousness and hurting heart. Thank you for posting this letter. I believe it's one of the most damning pieces of the puzzle yet revealed.
Rachel February 24, 2014 Reply

I agree, Nicole, this is a very important piece of evidence. I am planning to speak to my parents this evening about this whole issue and this will definitely be one of the articles I direct them to read. Thank you, RG, for all you are doing and the spirit in which you are doing it. I am so thankful for the freedom in Christ that I now enjoy and my deepening relationship with Him that is based on what He has already done, not on my own futile efforts. But my heart aches for those whose eyes are still blinded. I pray that the Lord will use the things you have posted on this site to help them truly see the truth.
Alfred Corduan February 24, 2014 Reply

Would it make any difference to point out . . . that this happened 30 years ago? So much water under the bridge . . . So what godly purpose can ensue by dragging this forth and smearing it before the world, believer and non-believer alike?

Would there be any point in pointing out that this statement is, of course, heavily biased against Bill, given that Dr. Schultz found himself to have major doctrinal differences with Bill? Not everyone does. One of the bis reason I hang in there . . . is that I really agree with Bill. I think what he teaches is correct. Which moves the basic of disqualification to a much higher standard on the other counts.

Does every man's ministry get "authorized" by a vote of some majority . . . or at what point does he simply answer to God and start preaching his conscience? I for one would like to shut down the strong Calvinist preachers, all of them . . . based on what I see as heresy. Fortunately for them, they don't pay much attention to me.

And, finally . . . can anyone tell me when and how King David's "Board" met . . . and how they chastened him? We have his prophet, there at his bidding . . . what else? How about Paul? To whom did he go for approval to move in the world and preach the Gospel? Obviously he was sent out in the early days . . . and he consulted with his brethren . . . but when they - big boys, headed by Peter - stepped in to stop him, he said a firm "No".

I think this statement is certainly worth reading. If found myself feeling more and more, as I read, that Dr. Schultz had convinced himself of something that apparently the rest of the board was not in full agreement on. And in the end he resigned. Whether he was completely right would be a topic of debate. But to take this as proof per se? That he should have ceased ministry . . . and THIS is the basis on which to try to force him out now, to settle this old score 30 years later? No, not correct.
- Kay February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  I'm troubled that you seem to be putting Gothard on the same level as the apostles.
  
  Also, there really is Biblical authority found in the church to evaluate what ministers teach. It appears that Gothard has not been under church authority and has answered to no one but himself.
- J.B. February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  "Water under the bridge," you say, Alfred? Perhaps you believe that Gothard's teachings are sound and that these allegations should be swept under the rug even more than they already have for the past few decades, but all I have to do is to look at the broken lives, broken families, and broken people who have been shattered under his teachings and conclude that he is not nearly as enlightened as he thinks he is, especially in light of the millions who have found true spiritual freedom outside of IBLP - and that there are people in IBLP who are being exploited even today who need to hear this information. It DOES matter. Your penchant for elevating your experience above everyone else's speaks volumes about how you are SO willing to turn a blind eye to those who have suffered and are still suffering. You should be ashamed.
  
  And please, just save your breath on the invalid biblical comparisons. Did David and Paul habitually live a lifestyle contrary to what they taught? Was what they taught in diametric opposition to the nature of the Gospel? Did they live a life defined by continual sexual harassment with no sign of true remorse? No. You know this. Admit it, Alfred. Gothard is a hypocrite, and your willingness to defend him and marginalize those who are being abused is an impediment to their healing.
- greg r February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  You are going to get some traffic (predictably) from your comment, Alfred. I won't go point for point, but say :
  
  1)King David was KING David... we only have one king now, at least that's how it's supposed to work. It would be unwise to draw too many parallels to the life of the church now, unless you want to make a comparison to Jesus Himself.
  
  2)you misread Galations, friend. Peter didn't step in to stop Paul, Paul was the elephant in the room...Paul stepped in to stop Peter, and the others of the circumcision camp (Bill, are you listening about circumcision ???) paul was very much one to work with others, even though he got the gospel from Jesus Himself: Paul consulted with many, including the Jerusalem council. He was not a rogue missionary.
- Ryan Sapp February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Alfred,
  
  Bill has a few teachings that we all can agree on. In looking for a statement from him today I came across his teachings on courtship.
  
  He should follow the admonition of I Timothy 5:1–2 to treat all young women to whom he is not married as sisters, with absolute purity... he should always interact with her in a way that he would be happy for other men to interact with her.
  
  Avoid Defrauding
  To defraud another person is to stir up in them desires that cannot be righteously satisfied.
  
  As you choose to carefully guard against inappropriate emotional attachment and physical intimacy...
  
  Alfred I think we have common ground:)
- Karah February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  The Basic seminar was built on this foundation. ATI was built on this foundation. This foundation is SAND!!
  
  He had his womanizing brother write materials for him that were used to train children. Bill KNEW that Steve was up there in Northwoods manipulating (forcing) secretaries into having sex with him while he wrote the Character Sketches. Yet Bill "stay away from even the appearance of evil" has had no issue selling thousands of copies to unsuspecting families.
  
  If Bill's conscience allows him to do this sort of thing then cover it up, hide it and get a raise from it, then I want no part of it. He has no accountability to anyone and that is indeed a dangerous way to live.
  
  Alfred, you may be fine having your life based on all of this. That is your prerogative. But people deserve to know. They deserve the truth so they can chose if this foundation is right for them.
- Shane February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  No it doesn't make any difference.
  
  I find it telling that you can use words so strong as heresy and blasphemy for Calvinism and use words like naive for Bill Gothard's violation of the very principles you've just said you agree with.
- Mark R February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Very little of Dr. Schultz' letter has to do with his doctrinal disputes (he only mentions the 5th Commandment issue in a couple of places). And in several places the concern over doctrine isn't solely based on Dr. Schultz' opinion, but concerns raised by Gothard's SUPPORTERS that, at best, he failed to practice what he preached.
  
  If you were selling me a secular product or service, but I found out that you refused to use it yourself, would I not be right in questioning whether it would work for me? I should be more so skeptical when it comes to matters of Biblical interpretation, as wrong doctrine places us in opposition to God, at best not having all the benefits of being a Christian, and at the worst placing eternal souls in danger of Hell fire.
  
  The MAJORITY of the letter has to do with Gothard's relationship to the supposedly independent IBLP Board. It appears he (conveniently) placed himself under the "umbrella of (Board) authority" when the storms came, and removed himself from under it when the storms stopped. This is the classic mark of the hypocrite.
- AndyB February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Alfred,
  
  You seriously agree with Mr.Gothard that the most important commandment is to honor your father and mother?
  
  Let me restate what you said, "I agree with Bill which moves the basic of disqualification to a much higher standard"??? really??
  
  Where do you get the idea that Mr.Gothard is an Apostle in the same way and sense that Paul was? That's pretty darn near rank heresy.
  
  The attitudes and behavior described in this letter is what thousands of us personally witnessed of Mr. Gothard. Bill thinks, as do you, that he's not a mere mortal he's "Apostle Paul 2.0. That he's above answering to poor mortals on this earth because of birthright.
  
  You are in a dangerous position if you consider anyone on this earth a non-mere-mortal. It undermines the Sufficiency of Scripture and puts you in a constant path of heretics that tell you what you want to hear. "I agree with him therefore he's right" is the refrain of people from all ages that don't submit to scripture but bend scripture to their own desires via teachers that tell them what they want to hear.
- Ileata Lundmark February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Alfred, I'm sorry, but your comments are actually making me laugh.
  
  David and Paul didn't have not-for-profit ministries that took in millions of dollars of donor money. They didn't not have a legal requirement to have a board that they submitted to. Gothard does. They also didn't have a 30 year history of lying so often that their friends felt the need to write down everything they said less they later try to deny it.
  
  David was a political dictator. (Are you finally admitting that Gothard is dictator?) But, he was God's anointed. When Nathan came to him, he repented. History has shown us over and over that Gothard has not repented regardless of the number of Nathans who have called him to repentance.
  
  Paul was an apostle. And he was accountable to the church and the truth of Scripture. You might want to check out Galatians 1:9.
  
  This attempt by you, one of his most loyal followers, to justify his lack of accountability only shows how very true this accusation is.
  - Alfred Corduan March 2, 2014 Reply
    
    Actually, Paul DID take in sizable amounts of money, [collected funds from Asian believers for the Jewish believers in financial need]. If he was like the other apostles he had control of large amounts of land, buildings, resources [They controlled the assets given to "the church"]. And Paul never placed himself in a special sphere, instead telling us to emulate him, be like him.
    
    No, Bill is no apostle . . . but there are aspects of Paul's experience that might find a mirror in what has gone on with many of God's servants, especially those that stake out unpopular positions.
    - greg r March 2, 2014
      
      Alfred: how do you make the statement that Paul took in "sizable amounts of money.." I wasn't aware that scripture mentioned how much that was. Also, it was $$ that was collected for a specific purpose , there is no reason to believe that Paul kept some of that for his ministry or trips. The differences with IBLP and ATI are striking, I see no record of Paul gathering in large amounts of anything, except prayer..
    - Alfred Corduan March 2, 2014
      
      Then you have no idea what it would mean for Christians in Asia to generally be collecting money for Christians in Judea. They were not all poor . . . we are talking thousands collecting for thousands. That was not a Sunday School offering.
    - KH March 2, 2014
      
      Alfred, did Paul after preaching and taking in all that money go home and inappropriately touch young ladies? Did he punish others for just talking to a person of the opposite gender? Did he try to pay off people with hush money? I could go on to make my point.
    - greg r March 2, 2014
      
      Again, Alfred, scripture is silent as to how much $$ was collected. And there is no mention of Paul using said $$ for anything other than the specific need it was collected for. Apparently Paul got the memo about living simply being a good witness to the gospel.
    - Nancy2 March 2, 2014
      
      According to Paul he had no dwelling place. According to Paul he worked with his own hands.
      
      1Cor 4:11-12
      
      11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;
      
      12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
      
      He made his living as a tent maker.
      
      Acts 18:1-4
      
      1After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
      
      2And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
      
      3And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
      
      4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
    - Alfred Corduan March 3, 2014
      
      Nancy2: He at least handled a vast amount of resources. He was a missionary . . . so tentmaking and a more austere lifestyle made sense. We know he did that in Ephesus. The other apostles didn't work - Acts 6:4 "But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word." (as opposed to running the widow's charity) . . . so I suspect he rarely worked, so he could preach more.
      
      KH: I am quite sure he never touched anyone inappropriately. Nor paid hush money. Let's let the investigation conclude. As far as focused boy-girl interactions, yes, those are the general rules for young people, although nothing even remotely as draconian as you suggest. My son has been living there for 10 years.
- David February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Alfred, I believe you when you say you believe what Bill teaches is correct. But that is your undoing. It is not correct. It is heresy, brother. I hope and pray that you eventually come to see this.
- greg r February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  You get one more response from me, Afred, because I ate my lunch too fast :) the point is NOT that Schultz and Bill disagreed, the piont is that Bill would not, will not, stand for ANY kind of disagreement from anyone, about anything substantial. This includes major areas of theology down to re-doing the light switches on the Lear to the tune of $5k.. remember that ??
  
  Don't lose the forest from the trees. Bill set himself above any authority "scripturally" (although he is too sophisticated to ever put it that way OUT LOUD), and simply is not, probably never has been, underneath authority. Among the many evidences for this is the way he "credentials" his teaching with testimonial: if Bill says it works, then God says it's OK. It is an unfortunate coincidence that Bill happens to have taught in an age where that kind of weak way of approaching scripture is not rebuffed from the get go. But it often isn't. (PS: that was also one of Joe Smith's favorite ways of teaching...)
- Matt February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Hey Alfred,
  
  I actually agree with you, in that I believe that if one has a clear calling from God to preach a certain message, that they should do so and not let any external authority stop you.
  
  The problem in this case is that Bill has spent years upon years teaching about authority, and making a huge deal about submission to authority. If every single person in the world is supposed to be subject to an 'umbrella of authority' except Bill Gothard, doesn't that seem a little suspect?
  
  So in this case, even though I agree that Bill ought to be able to preach his conscience without interference, Bill's own message contradicts that! I do believe that he should at least follow his own teachings. So, if he's going to preach about being under an umbrella of authority, then he ought to be under one himself. The umbrella he supposedly reported to was the Board, and he resisted their authority at every turn. He can't have his cake and eat it too. If he's free to follow God without submitting to a board, then so should each young person working at IBLP. But they have to submit to Bill, therefore Bill ought to submit to SOMEBODY.
  - greg r February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Matt wrote:
    
    "So in this case, even though I agree that Bill ought to be able to preach his conscience without interference..."
    
    This is rife with trouble, not just for Bill, but anyone, if 'conscience' is the main rudder on the ship. Just because Bill G, or Alfred, or greg r doesn't see a problem with something, that doesn't mean the problem is not in fact there. this is where real accountability comes in to 1)the WORD itself 2)church history (to a point) how has the church universal seen this matter for the last 2,000plus yrs, is there good reason to make a change 3)accountability to others, esp. those in leadership over us. #3 can be abrigaded if those leaders have flaunted scripture (see Martin Luther and the reformation..)
    
    Bill does NOT get a free pass to just "preach his conscience..." this plays into the hands of those like Bill who treat honest self--examination of both behavior AND theology, like leprosy.
    - Matt February 24, 2014
      
      greg r, I agree with what you're saying. Maybe conscience was a poor choice of words on my part.
      
      I agree that people ought to be accountable to the church universal, and to the people with ecclesiastical authority over them.
      
      I guess what I was saying is that I believe there is a place and time to preach what you feel God has called you to preach, even if that message goes against the authorities over you, like the Reformation that you referenced. And if Bill felt like he had to do that because Gd was leading him to do it, he has every right to do it if he's willing to accept the consequences of it.
      
      I'm a United Methodist, and if I started teaching enough horrible stuff in my church, the bishop of my church would kick me out. I could still keep on preaching the same stuff if I wanted to, but I just couldn't do it in the church I was in. Bill had the same option, except he demonstrated that he was unwilling to accept consequences and manipulated his way to staying in power in the organization, throwing out people who disagreed with him.
      
      Also, it was extremely hypocritical of him in light of his teaching on authority. The fact that he kept a huge emphasis on authority in his teaching without submitting to any authority for himself is hugely problematic.
  - mitchell chapman February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    from MITCHELL CHAPMAN
    
    I attend a methodist church also and our pastor does a great job but he is very humble also and would not do all the manipulations that Bill does.
    
    Definition of clear conscience : A clear conscience involves that inner freedom of spirit toward God and others that comes by knowing that Gods holiness is not offended by ones thought or action, and that no one can point a finger at you and say, "you have offended me, and you have never asked for my forgiveness." quote can be found on page 42 of the Basic seminar textbook. It is on page 42.
- Timothy Baldridge February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Steps to being successful:
  
  1) Start a non profit
  2) Abuse girls one at a time so that Matt 18 doesn't apply
  3) Oust those who oppose you
  4) Hold control for > 30 years so that people can claim "it happened so long ago"
  5) ....
  6) Profit!
  - Heidi February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Ha! Timothy, yes.
    
    What is number 5?
  - DAVID PIGG February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    got it
  - Shane February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    6 is the number of man. You need another principle for there to be success.
    - Nancy2 February 24, 2014
      
      7. Write rules of engagement that are sure to silence your opponents.
      
      Love number 5. That was the reason my son became a speed reader.
  - greg r February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    I do like the list , but #1 has to be "BECOME THE DUDE" nothing else will work until you've checked that box
    - Shane February 24, 2014
      
      http://dudeism.com/ordination/
- Deanna February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  What is 30 years to God for unrepentant sin?
  
  To paraphrase 1 Cor. 13, if I teach the best theology but have not love.... What is loving about violating the purity of his young secretaries?
  
  About David, it is clear he submitted himself spiritually to the prophet of God. About Paul, it is quite plain in Scripture that he submitted himself to the Jerusalem Council. Why else would he seek the on how to handle the conflict between Jewish believers and Gentile believers, and why else would he have taken the vow ceremony at their bidding?
  
  In Ephesians, the armor of God is compared to Roman armor. It is commonly pointed out in sermons that Roman armor has no back protection. It is often pointed out that the armor was designed such because they were not supposed to retreat. Yet in a battle field, attacks can come from any side, so why would this make sense? What is missing is that Roman soldier was never meant to fight alone. A Roman army was unbeatable when they fought as an army, not as a group of individuals. This means that the soldiers covered each others' backs.
  
  Who is Bill Gothard relying on to cover his back from spiritual attacks of pride, lust, or any other sin of the heart?
- Shelley Randolph Romey February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  I'm sorry Alfred. Even if you don't even consider doctrinal differences this matters. If it was your daughter 30 years ago that BG knowingy allowed to be abused by his brother would you give this man a pass? If it was your daughter sent to NW with no way to remove herself from the situation would you think 30 years don't matter? There has no repentance, no help offered to those girls. There was great perversion happening and much of this "ministry" was born during that perversion. It makes my skin crawl.
  
  Doctrine is not the most important thing to me at this point even though it is so totally messed up. Anyone manipulates people, offers bribes, and works so hard to cover up grievous sins, doing this all with no conscious whatsoever has no business in any kind os leadership role, let alone one surrounding himself with young girls.
  
  Where is your outrage over the ruined lives of the young women whose lives were ruined while BG fought to keep his reputation? 30 plus years of hiding sins does not make it ok. As a father with daughters you should get that. Regardless of doctrine or beliefs, these were evil events that took place. No one was held accountable. Put your daughter's name where Ruth's is and see if you feel the same. All your points of doctrine will be countered by many here, I am sure. But just put that aside for a minute and be a father whose daughter would have been hurt so horribly.
  
  No, it does not matter that it was 30 years ago. A ministry born with perversion needs to die. You can't make anything good shine from that.
  - Shelley Randolph Romey February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Again, my thoughts went faster than my fingers. Please excuse the typos and errors. My mind gets spinning so fast when I read these stories that my finger fly and I don't proof read!
  - Sad February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Remember Shelley, that the victims are at fault for what has happened to them. Their perpetrators are victims of their female wiles. Thus, it is ok what happened to them regardless of how they were put into a position to be preyed upon. You really should not be taking up an offense for those harmed young ladies, especially so long ago. You sound so bitter.
    
    (end sarcasm)
    
    Ma'am, in due seriousness, good post, right on point. Two thumbs up for you Ms. Romey.
    - Sarah February 24, 2014
      
      Thus the kool-aid we all drank
- Laura February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Alfred: that this happened 30+ years ago is proof of a pattern of lies, deception and sin. This is foundational proof of the character and false foundation - a house built on SAND! Additionally, this documentation is vital in showing Matt. 18 has been attempted time and again and has fallen on deaf ears. It demonstrates Bill's heart condition: that of a reprobate. How does Scripture say we deal with a reprobate? That this happened 30+ years ago and there are continuing examples of immoral behavior demonstrates his heart's condition.
  
  You also ask what purpose can 'smearing' this before the world achieve. The answer is two-fold. One, because he has had a very public ministry world wide, he must be publicly held to account world-wide. This serves the purpose of warning others to the error in his teaching and in his personal life. Secondly, to a watching world that it says we will not permit this falsehood and immoral behavior to continue. If we, God's people, do not require accounting, it will be dealt with harshly by the 'world' and we, those who name the name of Christ, will be lumped in with Bill.
  
  King David was "a man after God's own heart", not because he didn't sin, we know he sinned grievously. David was a man after God's own heart because when he was shown his sin he humbled himself and repented before his nation! David didn't need his 'board' to meet because he responded with true repentance and mourning to the first person who confronted him about his sin! And, even though there was evident repentance and public mourning, God still permitted his son to die. There was consequence.
- Benjamin Chung February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Dude! You the man! but your buddy is wrong. BG is not God. Remember, Thou shalt have no other gods before me. That is me that you are talking to. Right here, at the moment. Remember not to worship your BG God.
- DavidM February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  "One of the bis reason I hang in there . . . is that I really agree with Bill. I think what he teaches is correct. Which moves the basic of disqualification to a much higher standard on the other counts."
  
  Ok, lets assume this a is sound bit of reasoning. Then let me ask again...
  Given Mr. Gs teachings and his well-established practices, what would should be done with someone on IBLP staff who defrauds young women - not once, but several times and over several years AND after having been confronted by numerous people? See, even using only Mr. Gs own teachings and standards, he should no longer be there. Mr G doesn't even meet HIS OWN standard for staying in the ministry.
- Karah February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Hey Alfred - did you miss the part where Bill went behind the board and offered a $50,000 bribe to someone to keep quiet? Hardly seems like the actions of an honorable person who only wishes to present the truth.
  - kevin February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Karah,
    That was over 30 years ago, so it is ok. I guess sin has an expiration date.
  - Alfred Corduan March 2, 2014 Reply
    
    Facts matter, now don't they. As I recall, $50,000 was restitution of house equity that had been given to the Institute. As you recall, many have complained about liquidating their assets to join the ministry, only to leave under unwelcome terms with . . . nothing. I need to find the details again . . . this was anything but a bride.
    - Alfred Corduan March 3, 2014
      
      Or bribe.
- Myron Horst February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Folks,
  One of the things that we can learn from this 30 year old information is to raise a big red flag in our mind whenever someone strongly supports a sexual predator. There is a very real possibility that the reason they are supporting or doing nothing about the person involved in sexual abuse is that they are involved in sexual misconduct themselves. This is something that I have seen in numerous sexual abuse cases. After a while you start seeing patterns in sexual abuse cases.
  
  Bill Gothard supported his brother Steve and he too was involved in hidden sexual misconduct and other questionable actions himself. John MacLario, from the BJU executive board heavily handed supported Bill. MacLario resigned after three weeks when his recent immoral past began to surface.
  
  In the article "Yet another Doug Phillips Sex Scandal", it was reported how Doug Phillips repeatedly avoided dealing with known a sexual predator in his home church. People were baffled why he did not address the problem when he was so heavy handed about other "sins". After Phillips' own sexual immorality/abuse became known, it became obvious why he supported the sexual predator by his silence.
  http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/yet-another-doug-phillips-sex-scandal/
  
  A person's morality affects their judgment. At the same if a person supports a sexual predator, it is not concrete evidence that too are guilty of sexual misconduct. It may be bad judgment, bribe money, or something else. But in any case, raise a red flag in your mind.
- L. Shackelford February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Alfred, I have been reading your comments here for a while. Why do you need Bill Gothard to be right about everything? What has he given you? Are you like him? Many men follow BG because he gives them ultimate control over their wives and children. Many men find they can hide their own vices behind this super-spiritual facade… like Bill does, it turns out. Do you want your family believe that the 5th commandment is above all the rest? Would it make you happy if your daughter was one of Bill's favorites? Would that make you proud?
  
  Conversely, what will you lose if you are wrong about all you have believed under Bill's teaching? Will you have to listen to how your wife and children really feel and what they think? Will you lose face in your church? Will you lose control? Will be left with nothing but Jesus Christ and God's word to guide you, and no one in between? Is that a scary thought? Will you lose the pride you have in having done it all right, and looking perfect (at the moment), and fear for what might happen?
  
  What is it that you want, Alfred, that BG gives you? This is an important question because whenever we seek from a created thing, what God has promised, it is idolatry. Whenever we attribute to a created thing, the attributes of God, it is idolatry. Whenever we praise, honor and give thanks to a created being for the blessings we have from God, it is idolatry.
  
  It the Old Testament, the idols of the Nations promised good crops, fertile wives and fertile livestock. These were blessing and success in that agrarian time. The religious systems of the nations offered concrete things to do to get what they wanted. They also appealed to the sinful heart in one way or another. The religious systems today are the same, they are just packaged for the modern market. In this case, the 'Christian' market, and people who want 'God's blessing,' success, and the 'perfect family.'
  
  "Do this and live" the Law commands,
  But gives me neither feet nor hands.
  A blessed truth the Gospel brings,
  It bids me fly, and gives me wings!
  - greg February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Yes. Yes.
  - Catherine February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    My thoughts exactly. Why is Alfred so invested in this man?
  - David February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Think about it: Your Christian life has been defined and directed by the teachings of Bill Gothard. Not only that, but you have personally defended him. You have affirmed him to others. You have immersed your children in his teachings. And you believe that all of this is of God. You point to blessings that have come out of following his teachings. To open your eyes and see that you have been deceived and bewitched by, "another gospel," carries ramifications that to some people are too terrible to accept. For some, seeing they have been deceived would challenge their faith in God. The reason is that people have their faith in these teachings, rather than in Christ, and don't know the difference. They cannot contemplate that God would allow them to be deceived -- even though God's protection against such deception is all through the Word. Incredibly, God is actually showing them the Truth, just as He promised. But this is how deception works. People are blind and think that they see. Arguments won't move them and all the evidence in the world won't wake them up. What they need is deliverance from the spirit of deception -- this is a spiritual problem. My prayer is that some would indeed open themselves and be delivered.
  - Alfred Corduan March 2, 2014 Reply
    
    I have followed Bill Gothard over 40 years because what he teaches is accurate, scriptural, has stood the test of time and all of the consideration I have put to it. That is literally why I keep hanging around. He is right!
    
    When I consider what he teaches about authority, and I look in Scripture, he says what it says. He has explained things that no one else is able to, interesting or even troubling things that everybody else ignores or "explains away".
    
    Sorry, but I have focused on "Grace" for 40 years . . . he is right! The definition of grace generally applied is but a shadow of what Scripture teaches. He nailed it. His approach explains ALL of the applications of that wonderful word. Most of those who have a problem with him in this arena are Calvinists, that have read things into "Grace" that just ain't there. God doing things in us that we have no responsibility for . . . can't do it, can't stop it. God picking this one and saving them against their will, ignorning and hating that one and withholding "grace". That is - sorry - heresy. ["Irresistible Grace". An interesting term, false, but interesting too in that it implicitly accepts Bill's definition, "The desire and POWER to do God's will."]
    
    Bill has given me nothing. Other than light, insight. For that I am forever grateful. Also has provided motivation for things we would probably never had had the courage to do, like have 11 kids, every one of them a treasure. Like eliminate things from life that we know are harmful . . . positive peer pressure.
    
    Why does anyone appreciate and follow any Bible teacher and minister? Because they provide light and help us do what the Lord commands us to do. The instrument never is more important than the Lord . . . but we DO appreciate the instrument. Give honor to whom honor is due.
    - "Hannah" March 2, 2014
      
      "Stood the test of time," my eye!! You don't have to read very many personal stories on here, to know THAT isn't true!
    - Shane March 2, 2014
      
      Alfred, What is your definition of heresy?
    - esbee March 2, 2014
      
      Bill's definition (of grace)--- "The desire and POWER to do God's will."
      
      When I first heard that definition it seemed to make sense, like it was a deeper continuation of what the Biblical definition of grace is (that are saved by the free gift of grace that God gave us through Jesus, which we cannot earn) with the next step in our growth as Christians to discern and do God's will.
      
      So I accepted that further deeper definition of grace (giving us the power and desire to do His will) UNTIL I got to the part of BG's teaching where the man defined IN DETAIL what God's will was for me as a woman ---how to dress, do make-up and hair (I hate make-up and dresses) keep house, have umpteen children), never EVER argue or raise my voice to my husband (an Italian---not argue?----ever????) etc etc etc....then I had neither the power nor desire to any of God's will. It all became a heavy burden. (And the ladies in the church were soooo helpful, they wanted to do my hair, give me pretty dresses, share recipes, hints on make-up or cleaning house, let me hold their babies (ugh!) hoping to get those maternal instincts fired up, etc etc etc. I went along for a while but it just was not me...I could only think of the next time I would get to ride my horse, hold and pet my cats, and ideas for the next painting (usually a horse or western.)
    - Alfred Corduan March 2, 2014
      
      Just because nobody comes here to tell their stories of how Bill Gothard has blessed them and their families . . . doesn't mean those stories don't exist. They do! Read this site and all you have is destruction, doom and gloom. That is NOT universal. Far from it. Which makes it amusing and then, well, irritating, when people unfamiliar with IBLP, not part of it, come and read, and then start cursing along with everyone else. They are punching a caricature.
      
      Shane: Heresy is "unbalanced truth". Sodium without the Chlorine (two poisons make salt). "God is love" without "God judges people in hell". "We are not under the Law" without "These things are for our learning". "God is sovereign" without "God judges us according to our choices." Maybe we all step out of balance from time to time . . . heresy is when we get stuck permanently on one issue due to a compromise in another issue.
    - greg r March 2, 2014
      
      Alfred, what has to be irritating to you is so many people with MORE one on one experience than you with Bill convinced that it was all in all a negative experience. Those testimonies are rampant, and remarkably consistent. Either these many people have a problem...or you do not know the real Bill Gothard. Is it even possible that you are deceived ??
    - Shane March 2, 2014
      
      Oh. I've never heard that definition for heresy. I've always understood it to be mean "out of accord with or counter to orthodoxy." I'm still surprised you can use such a strong term for a fairly well historically attested branch of the Church and yet be so dismissive regarding the seriousness of the actions that you actually believe Mr. Gothard guilty. It seems, as you say, out of balance. I realize that this is not the place to debate your theological charge of heresy, but you're flailing a bit in your descriptions of Calvinism and guilty of your own straw man. But hey, it's your axe you grind it however you want.
    - Shane March 2, 2014
      
      I would love to hear you describe how Gothard balances his view of circumcision with the other Biblical teachings on circumcision. You brought up Timothy (an exception for contextualizing the gospel to Jews early in the life of the Church) in another post as the positive example. Where's the balance? Where does he deal with Rom 2,3,4; 1 Cor.7.18; Gal 2; 5.2, 6, 11; 6.12,15;Phil 3.3; Titus 1.10. See, the overwhelming teaching of the NT is that circumcision as a sign of being a better Christian is anti-gospel. You throw Timothy out there but don't deal with the balance of the teaching of the NT. Gothard surely doesn't.
      
      Where does Gothard balance his principles for living with the teaching on Freedom? Where does he balance his teaching on Rom 6 with Paul's being a struggling sinner in Rom 7 or that he concludes with saying that there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Where does Where does he deal with Jesus' teaching in Mark 7 that it's not what enters that body that makes it unclean? Where does he deal with the fact that Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine at an already raucous wedding party? Where does he teach that Jesus hung out with people eating and drinking so publicly that he was accused of being a glutton and drunkard?
      
      One thing I absolutely did not learn at the seminars I attended was balance.
    - "Hannah" March 2, 2014
      
      What difference does it make, how much supposed "good" a person did, if they molested one child?
    - Alfred Corduan March 3, 2014
      
      On that we agree, "Hannah". And I am quite sure he didn't. That is what this inquiry is all about.
      
      Shane: I have no idea what "orthodoxy" is as a standard. One group's "normal" is another's perversion. Proof in point being the so called "Orthodox" church. I doubt so very much that Paul, who told us to reject a heretic after the 2nd or 3rd admonition, was thinking about "orthodoxy", you know, "majority rules". If orthodoxy was the rule, then Martin Luther was sinning against God.
    - greg r March 3, 2014
      
      Alfred, you are a true disciple of Bill...now we get to go round and round as to what "molestation" really is... what "inappropriate behavior" really is.. what "sexual harassment" really is... and on and on.
      
      There is no end to this, this is a shell game to keep Bill up on the throne. This is EXACTLY the behaviors of Bill described in the 1983 transcript: words mean what he wants them to mean (for now..)
    - MatthewS March 3, 2014
      
      Shell game, indeed. Alfred pretends to ask honest questions but he often does not act in good faith and often hijacks threads. Completely lacking is any heart or concern for the ladies (and men) who have been so deeply wounded. I suspect that in reality the person Alfred is really defending is himself. The personal cost of all this is just too high for him to acknowledge. And for that, I feel for him. I wish for him to find a way to quit clinging on to the man Bill and begin clinging onto the "one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. "
      
      I believe that Dave's comments to him a while back were very enlightening:
      
      https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/03/stolen-treasures/#comment-15788
      
      https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/03/stolen-treasures/#comment-16020
      
      (If history repeats, this comment will be followed by various complaints of personal attacks and Alfred asking for sympathy or protection. I'll just answer him here preemptively and say that this is not an attack on him as a human being but it is calling attention to the tactics he keeps using repeatedly).
    - greg r March 3, 2014
      
      Alfred: I know I'm relatively new here, two months or less, but I have to say that after reading dozens of your posts, it is VERY difficult to take you serioiusly (though I'm trying). Seeker for truth ?? Meticulous ?? Thorough in searching out a matter ??
      
      No, brother, you are an apologist, and a very hard working one at that , but just a front man. At least that's how this is shaping up to me: let at least SOME of the truth in today, while your ears can still hear it.
    - Shane March 3, 2014
      
      You have an idea what is orthodox. You just don't want to be pinned down. I get it. If one denies the virgin birth is that orthodox or heresy? Is it "out of balance"? No. It's counter to orthodox teaching.
      
      Again, I ask you where's the balance in Gothard's teaching? I've pointed out specific teachings that Gothard does not have in balance. Again I ask you why you can use such strong words (heresy and blasphemy) regarding a historically attested stream of the Church, and yet be so utterly dismissive and deflecting regarding the sin of Gothard that YOU admit and the hurt his sin has caused.
    - P.L. March 3, 2014
      
      Thank you Matthew S. At this point I feel too sorry for Alfred to even want to engage his arguments. But I am concerned that his words will discourage those who visit here for healing, and are often already sensitized to words such as his.
      
      As a victim of spiritual abuse myself, I have a strong visceral reaction to hearing again the same words and arguments that were once hurled at me, even if the one using them might indeed be seeking truth and is just poorly spoken or poorly aware. ('Bitter', 'good report' 'lack of forgiveness' and 'Matthew 18' being common triggers)
      
      After participating in this site for some time, all of us, including Alfred, SHOULD be aware of the victims, and be careful to approach even our questions without more Gothard-speak. Alfred, I look forward to seeing you reason from scripture ALONE, not from Gothard's definitions or interpretations.
    - greg r March 3, 2014
      
      @Shane: you told Alfred that "you have no idea what is orthodox.." that's absolutely the case, and I'm wondering if (yet again) it's because Bill has no use for creedal statements, apparantly, and is out from under any group or demonination (including Baptist). He only holds to "what the Spirit has led him ..." or something along that line. No man made tradition here..untethered from the rest of church history... as in , everyone else got it wrong, this new revelation will set us right....
      
      If this sounds very LDS like... it should, and yes, Joseph Smith had a hankering for the young girls also. These don't always go together, and the theology would be terrible no matter what his sex life was/is like.
    - greg r March 3, 2014
      
      hmmmm: DEMONINATION..... well, if the shoe fits :) :)
    - J.B. March 3, 2014
      
      "Stood the test of time"? Really, Alfred? Seriously? Perhaps I should use Gothard's own food poisoning analogy with respect to Christian rock music here:
      
      "Even though the majority of the customers were benefited by the food, the health department would close down the restaurant until the cause of food poisoning was identified and removed."
      
      Of course, this is meant for a scenario in which the majority of people benefit from something that hurts a few. Now consider just how many heartbreaking stories have come out of IBLP. You can point to the "successes" all you want. After all, you've learned from Gothard's strategically selective anecdotal storytelling well. But in the end, a person who doesn't know he's enslaved, regardless of his disposition, is still enslaved.
    - Paul VA March 6, 2014
      
      Alfred, I think it would be really healthy thing for you and for your wife and eleven kids for you to voice to them (and us if you will) some things that you don't agree with that BG teaches. The fact that you use blanket statements like "he is right!" with no qualifications is a very alarming thing. Are there things you think he overemphasis? Do you encourage your children to feel free to disagree with things that they don't thin match up with Scripture?
      I was raised in ATIA and later went to Bible School and then seminary and I think that some of my root motivation was so that I couldn't be manipulated and controlled by slick teachers any longer.
      Alfred, Bill's mishandling of the Word is so horrendous that it almost feels like a straw man is being torn down. His emphasis on circumcision is a great case in point. Its blatant.
      Obviously you love your eleven children and you attribute his ministry with encouraging you to have those children. I have a younger brother who my parents had in their 40s because of Bills teachings and I love by brother very much and am very grateful for him but that doesn't stamp any validity on Bill or the Institute any more than a Mormon loving his half brothers and sisters stamps validity on Joseph Smith.
      Bill's seems to demonstrate the traits of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the letter above points to this going back deep into his history and character. When you are in a better place to be open to having been wrong about him these last 40 years you might want to read more about how people get sucked into the web of narcissists and how the narcissist plays an important psychological role in the follower or admirers life. The follower feels personally attacked or that they are losing something if the narcissist is exposed as fallible or faulty.
      The Lord loves you and your family but that love is based on the gospel of Jesus and not some other "insight" or discovery into the true principals of the world. The latter is gnosticism not the gospel.
      Alfred, do you allow your older kids to read this website and give them some room to come to their down conclusions? If nothing else these allegations should be serious red flags for you...a flashing red light...slow down, come to a complete stop, and proceed only with caution and after looking both ways.
      Be careful of using your feelings about calvinists as a red herring to make you feel better about leading your family into ATIA. Its not a choice between Gothard or radical Calvinism. Its human nature to point out logs we think we see in others eyes to avoid specs in our eyes. All of us responding to Bill need to aware of the same problem. Bill being wrong doesn't mean that we are right in our beliefs and actions.
      You mention that Bill teaches things that Bill "has explained things that no one else is able to." This type of statement should sound an alarm. If all of the godly men and women who are scholars and pastors and teachers aren't able to explain the Bible in a way that seems "right" to you it might be for a reason. It feels good to think that we have the truth and others around us in church only have part of the truth...we feel secretly superior, we feel safe and right, and we feel a really strong since of solidarity and camaraderie with those few other families who "get it"...we have a common language with them and we feel safe with them because we are in control. Peer pressure brings with it outside thinking and influences and if we can cut those off then we can keep the good feeling of being right and in control.
    - 'Megan' March 6, 2014
      
      Paul, yes. If 2000 odd years of theologians, scholars, Godly men and women combined cannot answer certain questions about God, yet Bill 'can'... Very disturbing. Pretty sure all cult leaders say that only 'THEY' have the real truth, insights, special knowledge. Yes, it is Gnosticism, which is what Peter and Jude warned against.
- John February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Alfred the fact you think Gothard's teaching is correct shows how deceived you are. It can be demonstrated that Bill consistently misinterprets scripture.
  
  Also the fact you can dismiss the past as water under the bridge when Bill Has shown no repentance or true remorse for his action. The fact that Bill doesn't adhere to his own teachings and wont submit to any authority says volumes about you as well.
  
  Alfred side tracking the issue and building a straw man by calling Calvinism error also shows the same kind evade and attack methodology that Gothard uses. you are a true disciple of Bill Gothard Alfred.
  
  The difference between Gothard and Calvinism is that Calvinism gives God's grace and mercy its proper place. Calvinism teaches that God is in control of all things not Bill Gothard. Calvinism teaches that our destiny is in God's hands not ours.
  
  If you believe Bill is correct then you also believe that you earn your salvation through your good image and works that is the essence of Gothardism, that and Bill being the final authority on the matter.
  
  Thank you Alfred for making it clear who you follow and what you believe. May God have mercy on your soul because Bill wont!
- "Hannah" February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  The fact that it happened 30 yrs ago, makes RG's case that much stronger. Namely, that Bill is still up to his old tricks. In practice, nothing has changed. And he has been confronted numerous times, over a period of decades. Not, "water under the bridge," but, "he that being often reproved, hardeneth his neck..."
  - GuyS February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Hannah, you nailed it again. Thank you for saying out the truth that exposes the madness. It is such a wearisome thing to line by line dismantle the careless lies.
- P.L. February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  I can tell you why it matters to me, Alfred. It is because I want to be right, and do right, in my own heart before God in this matter, though I was only marginally affected by IBLP/ATI. Because I know those who were in much deeper, and I'd like to be able to help them.
  
  These thirty year old documents are important because they confirm to me that there is no 'touch not my anointed', no 'receive not an accusation against an elder' here, because Bill Gothard was neither. He has been disqualified as an overseer since at least 1976 according to Titus 1:
  
  "Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. "
  
  You've gone on and on in these pages about whether there was 'immorality', but God's standard for Bill was "blameless, self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined". And he wasn't. By the testimony of both true elders and multiple witnesses. Lacking the qualifications of an overseer, he had no authority to even be teaching about authority. And he certainly had no God-given authority to assert over others. What he had, regrettably, was 'power', created through an elaborate corporate structure--this is emphatically a corporation, and no church--set up in a highly self-serving fashion. But no authority.
  
  So challenging Bill Gothard is in no way challenging God's authority, or God's 'man'. Knowing this frees me, and others to whom I might seek to minister. The instructions of Matthew 18 regarding the offense of a brother having been adequately and repeatedly satisfied in this case, we need have no more qualms over the exposure of Bill Gothard's deeds than we would for any corrupt politician or sexually harassing CEO who eventually reaps what they sowed. In fact, as Christians we can uniquely rejoice in the light and truth that has come to this darkness because to do so is to rejoice in the character--dare I say the Character Qualities?--of God himself.
  - MikeM March 7, 2014 Reply
    
    Hi David, Now that I think about it it took me about ten years to be free of this kind of teaching in another organisation, but I think that it's roots started in my life from Bill's teaching.
    It is like follow instruction at all costs even when it does not stand up to reason, and then be blamed for not following it through even though it was stupid.
    David, when I read your post I feel what it means.
    
    Michael.
- David February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  "Would it make any difference to point out . . . that this happened 30 years ago? So much water under the bridge . . ."
  
  I personally know of dozens of people whose spiritual and material lives continue to be damaged by the teachings of Bill Gothard -- despite the fact that they immersed themselves in those teachings over 30 years ago. It isn't, "water under the bridge," to them. And Bill continues to teach his errors today. But then I forget, Alfred, you think that his teachings are correct -- but that he has simply has some moral failings. This is why, despite the essential value of sharing these stories, and the corrupt core that they expose, that in the end it is going to come down to the teachings themselves. Ironically, exposing those teachings as error is easily accomplished from scripture. But unfortunately, even many of Bill's detractors continue to think he is disqualified ONLY on moral grounds, rather than upon the fact that from the start he has been teaching, "another gospel."
  - Catherine February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    All that water - all those lives - going under that bridge. I'm sure the Lord has forgotten all about them...
- Susanna Wesley February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Alfred,
  
  Since you are so well acquainted with Mr. Gothard's ministry and have been in ATI for so long, surely you are similarly acquainted with Paul and Jenny Speed - their testimony, their ministry, the blessing they have received from Mr. Gothard. I certainly hope that you have attended one of the Speed's events, if only to be confronted by your own issues. Because all your defenses of Mr. Gothard are now starting to add up in my mind, and they only add up to one thing.
  
  Alfred, WHAT are you hiding?! Why are you willing to sacrifice your children on the altar of IBLP/ATI?! A father who LOVED his daughters (as I am beginning to see my dad DOES, even if it's taken 30 years for me to glimpse it) would have ditched Gothard long ago, especially given that you KNOW at least one of your girls is his "type"!!!! What have you done to your girls?! What has been done to you that you would rather DIE defending Gothard than admit that you (and he) were wrong all along?!!!
  
  It's not about doctrine really, Alfred, when you come down to it. For you it's getting to the point where you're covering for someone because he covers for you. That's called abuse. And it's messed up.
  
  I hope you find grace one of these days. Grace and freedom. Because the way you're living has to be killing you.
  - Alfred Corduan March 2, 2014 Reply
    
    If your analysis of me is as accurate as your analysis of Bill, you are in deep trouble.
    
    We have attended and enjoyed the Speed's seminar, BTW, appreciate them very much. My son has assisted them in very focused ways . . . our young people have attended their single's seminars. Their stuff is "real" and practical.
- Lori February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Thanks for the demonstration, Alfred. You've shown us all quite clearly how well you've learned to spin, distract, deflect, minimize, transfer blame, manipulate the facts, marginalize the victims, and misuse scripture from the master - Bill Gothard.
  
  Rather than defend his reputation, you've just put another nail in its coffin.
  - GuyS February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Exactly. Well said.
Ryan Sapp February 24, 2014 Reply

Thank you for your work RG and giving a voice to thousands if not millions.

I made a small donation to RG today using paypal. If you feel their information has been helpful and enlightening I would urge you to do the same. You can't really put a price on giving people a voice especially the victims in all of this.

P.S. I have absolutely nothing to do with RG. I have no idea who owns it or runs it but they are doing an incredibly professional job. THANK YOU.

Ryan
- Shane February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Thank you Ryan. I made a donation earlier by purchasing some books through the link, but I will be making a donation as well. I, like you, don't know the RG folks. I just know my experience in Gothardism, the freedom of being out, and am convinced that for the sake of the Kingdom it need to go away.
- JPU February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Every little bit helps! I made a donation last week. Thanks for putting it out there, RG.
WendyA February 24, 2014 Reply

Alfred, it's worth bringing back up because it was never properly dealt with, and it lays the groundwork for what happened in the ’90s and ’00s. Because the underlying problem was not dealt with in the ’70s and ’80s, more girls are coming forward, girls who have worked in the ministry recently, to say that inappropriate things happened to them.

Proof that he should have ceased ministry? YES! Because he was not following the rules that he laid out for everyone else (and that he enforced on everyone else in a very draconian manner). A man who preaches one thing and lives another is not qualified to preach the gospel of Christ. Jesus made it very clear that there was not to be one rule for one group and a different rule for a different group. That Christians were not to have a caste system in which one person got a pass on forbidden behaviours just because he was a teacher or pastor. God also requires humility in those who teach his gospel, and I have witnessed Bill's lack of humility personally. Refusing to listen to the men at Wheaton, refusing to listen to the men on his ever-changing Board of Directors ... there is no humility there.

As for the Board. When a person sets up his ministry to be answerable to a Board, then that is how it is supposed to work. The Board approves, disapproves, corrects, disciplines, directs. If Bill didn't want to be answerable to a board, he shouldn't have organized his ministry that way. Having a board that the leadership is not answerable to is pretense——false witness, if you will.

King David's board? He was the King! Are you suggesting that Bill is on a par with the King of Israel? If so, then let me point out that when Nathan the prophet came (at GOD's bidding) to confront David about his sin with Bathsheba, the result was not stonewalling, argumentation, justification, and blame-shifting. It was instant, abject confession: "I have sinned before the Lord." And he did not cease to pray, fast, and prostrate himself in sackcloth before God until the consequences of that sin (i.e., the death of the baby conceived in sin) were finished. (2 Samuel 11–12)
CPA February 24, 2014 Reply

As an accountant, it speaks volumes to me that he fought the audit. It also speaks volumes to me that the board felt that a big national firm (Price Waterhouse) was needed to handle the audit -- you would think a regional firm could have been sufficient since HQ operations were so centralized? Maybe the overseas operations were what caused it to be necessary, as an outsider I'm not entirely sure.

And the part about bribes and hush money? And the fact that Bill was able sign $50,000 checks without a second signature? Fraud waiting to happen. Accountants often use the Fraud Triangle to assess risk: opportunity, incentive, and the ability to rationalize your action. Usually two have to be present for a fraud to occur -- from this document, Bill hits all three points.

It is becoming incredibly clear that so very, very much of this was about money.
- Mark R February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  As a CPA myself, a smaller firm may have been able to handle the engagement. But two things to consider:
  
  1. There has always been this "belief" in the accounting/auditing profession that the "Big Four" auditing firms (at that time, it was the "Big Eight" prior to mergers and the collapse of Arthur Anderson in the wake of the Enron scandal) were somehow "superior" to local or regional firms. Given how the scandal was threatening the collapse of a nationally-prominent ministry, the Board may have felt that it needed one of the "Big Eight" firms to perform the audit engagement, in order ease the fears of alumni and supporters (it is possible that some big money supporters may well have threatened to withhold major donations unless a "Big Eight" firm was called in, and would not agree to anything less).
  2. As there were suspicions of improper transactions and even potential fraud involved, at this point one would need a firm that could perform "forensic accounting" (i.e., go well beyond what a normal audit engagement would involve to determine such things as reviewing documents for alterations and other signs of fraud). There aren't that many firms with that level of expertise, the "Big Eight" being among the few.
- Fomer Accountant February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  I agree with you completely CPA. My personal opinion in reading everything is that both Steve and Bill seemed to have learned their behavioral patterns somewhere. Their father defended both of them at every turn. I would be curious as to how the Gideon's finances looked under the Senior Bill Gothard's leadership. And perhaps if he had young secretaries as well. One does have to wonder.
K February 24, 2014 Reply

We joined ATI in the early 90's. It makes me sad that we didn't know all that had happened the ten years before, we never would have joined. The thing my Dad told us growing up was that the Lord allows us to go through things, good or bad, to help us for the future. I know the Lord allowed me to go through some very dark things to be able to face the day when my child was born with a disability. Gothard's ministry brought me closer to God, but also working for him brought me some of the darkest days of my life. That being said, this article confirmed to me not only were Bill and Steven victimizors but also victims. I don't think that Sr. was just the excuse Bill used over and over, for him he truly thought being under his Dad's authority was the most important and that is why he was able to go against his other teachings because his authority was influencing him to. I may be wrong but it seems pretty clear to me that Bill was not thinking clearly for himself and over the years I have heard that things have not been the same since Sr. died. This pattern has been seen over and over in other ATI families whose children report living in fear and domination and when they leave their homes in their 20's,30's or even 40's they have a hard time thinking clearly and make wise choices or even relating well with others. You see all that, in the statements above, in Bill's life, even to the point of giving thousands of dollars. Maybe it truly was done to win friends, however wrong it was. I am angered over all the wrong that has gone on and I am sure is still going on, but I feel sad that Bill was probably a victim in his youth too. Wrong doing has gone on way too long.
Jeff Gill February 24, 2014 Reply

Writing as the father of a teenager, if I had any kids at IBLP headquarters I would get them out right now whether I believed the allegations against Gothard or not. We have read how ugly things got back in ’79–’81. We have read about the ugly shaming and sending home that has happened through the decades. I saw how stupidly ugly it got during a week at Northwoods when some guys had an unauthorised snowball fight (serious sin jk/lol). We suffered through a multi-hour confession meeting because of a snowball fight. A.SNOW.BALL.FIGHT. I saw how ugly things could get when I was in Russia and a guy and two girls went on a walk outdoors in the open. (Never mind that twice we were paired off by the leaders in opposite gender couples to go shopping. I guess it's fine for safety but totally not okay for a walk and a chat.) George Mattix almost blew a gasket (a regular occurrence while I was in Russia).

Things are going to get ugly at HQ. Whether or not you support Gothard, do you really want to put your kids through that? Bring them home.
- Shane February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  It is in the Bible not to wrestle your neighbor. The principle by extension includes snow ball fights.
  
  I'm sorry. I know this is all very serious, and it's laughable at times as well.
  - Jeff Gill February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Shane, you may think it's laughable, but is that laughter 'humour' or 'folly'? If it's folly, you'd better make a public confession at the next staff meeting and then do Wisdom Searches until your concupiscent little fingers are bleeding from Strong's Concordance paper cuts.
    - Shane February 24, 2014
      
      Thanks Jeff. Your posts confirm three things to me. One) it is right and good to pray the whole thing collapses. Two) RG and those posting here are doing exceptionally at remaining measured in their response; had I experienced what you and others did I don't think I'd be so kind. Three) Gothard had enough influence on me that I feel anxiety over the idea that I may have overstepped in my attempt at humor. I'm sorry you had to endure such abuse. I hope I did not offend you.
    - Jeff Gill February 24, 2014
      
      Shane, you totally didn't offend me. The more jokes we can make about Gothard the more ridiculous he appears. I think that's probably why he labelled so much joking around 'folly'.
      
      What I experienced was mild compared to what many people on RG went through. It still took me at least two years to recover from my four months in Moscow (although I loved Russia and the people and most of the ATI students).
      
      Re: anxiety over posting. I almost didn't post the comic that I put up on my blog because of leftover Gothard ideas about not saying bad things about leaders, etc., but then I remembered that although he is, like all of us, a person of immeasurable worth, he is also an unrepentant unethical immoral hypocritical sexual predator who has engaged in criminal behaviour and who is still wrecking people's lives, and he needs to stop. So anything I can do to help the process, I will do.
  - William B. February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    "Children, I know it can be fun to wrestle. A nice punch to the face! Or a nice Pile Drive to the face! But - it is in the Bible, not to wrestle your neighbor."
    
    I remember at the ALERT Academy ALERT guys that had worked at previous Gothard Indoctrination Camps (TC's, Verity etc.) could barely even say "thank you" to the girls that served in the kitchen. Interaction was so abnormal that I had to tell several of the guys that their behavior was down right rude, yet as they acknowledged that I was right they were too afraid of getting sent home for behaving as any southern gentlemen ought! They (we) would knowingly avoid social courtesy with the opposite sex for the sake of not being perceived as flirtatious.
    
    It was totally wierd. Made absolutely no sense and yet we clung to it because we understood how backwards some of the leadership could be and we wanted to complete our training without any hiccups. It kind of felt like we were treated by leaders as sexual predators and deviants when we had exhibited no such behaviour. It was like we were being punished for something we hadn't even done. I guess we were being punished for what other people (BG and the rest of his ilk) were doing.
    
    If I hadn't had a sister on staff I probably would have been sent home or at least seriously reprimanded for being genuinely courteous and friendly.
    
    I would love to see ALERT go the way that the Oak Brook College of Law) went.
    - J.B. February 25, 2014
      
      I remember going to the Children's Institutes and ALERT Cadet day camps while my parents attended the Seminar in Sacramento each year. Even from a young age, it was so telling to see just how much the young people who coordinated and led those programs were itching to think outside the box with which IBLP confined them, which would usually result in negative consequences.
      
      For instance, one of the older teenage girls who led my CI group was encouraged by everyone in our circle to give a shy little five-year-old boy in the group a peck on the cheek. She was almost instantly replaced the following day. And we had at least one year in the Cadet camp where the leaders had everyone play a "British bulldogs"-style game in the large group assemblies, complete with tackling. Needless to say, that didn't last thanks to orders from "higher up." My point isn't whether or not these activities were appropriate, but rather the discouragement toward loosening up and having a great time. It was so easy to grow into a mindset of "is this okay?" based on how "frivolous" something could be construed as.
- Heidi February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  A snow ball fight? Wow. Jeff I'm sorry that happened to you.
  
  But didn't you know the rules? NO FUN ALLOWED FOR ANYONE at ANYTIME!
  - Jeff Gill February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    I didn't even participate in the snowball fight! But all 200ish 'young men' got to join in with the being chewed out and the repentance. I even got so caught up in the confession frenzy that I went to the front and told everyone about some sin that was so important I cannot recall even a hint of what it was. Back then I somehow I managed to think that Bill was both bizarrely off the mark and super-godly at the same time. I was 16, I think.
    - 'Megan' February 25, 2014
      
      I remember one of my sisters commenting that during 'confession' times, they had to think and think and think of something to confess, so they often went with some generic, 'I didn't smile at you when you greeted me yesterday, will you forgive me? (probably with some explanation of how not smiling meant they weren't joyful, grateful, under authority, or some other ridiculous thing), or something like, 'I swiped my hand on the curtain instead of the towel to dry my hands, I was wrong..'
      
      Reminds me of a quote I read somewhere, 'Listening to the confessions of a nun is like being stoned to death with popcorn.'
- David February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  "They who are under the law are under a curse." ALL of these stories are evidence of this Biblical Truth. Thank God that there is Truth in Christ.
Sarah February 24, 2014 Reply

In reading everything posted about the 1980 scandal so far, and most critically, this letter to the board, I keep feeling like we are all reading the story of an organization that collapsed and died in 1980.

Then I remember that, almost unbelievably, this same man & his pet teachings not only CONTINUED, but accelerated in scope and depth of influence!

I was born five years after this scandal, and then a few years later we joined ATI. And thus, something that had been acknowledged (by many apparently intelligent people) as disreputable 8 to ten years before became the guiding light for my well intentioned parents and our family. And they never knew the evils that had ALREADY been brought to light.

Sad that I was raised to define sin in life based on the creative imagination of the Gothard men.

Sad that the many of us who really love God have been long hindered in our maturity because of these teachings, and (for all of us who are "out") now as we daily struggle to purge them from our hearts and minds.

Sad that this didn't get fully exposed then. Glad that the truth is being exposed now.
- Ryan Sapp February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Worth the read. Great post. Thx
KH February 24, 2014 Reply

Ironically, my first exposure to IBYC was when I attended the basic seminar in September 1980. Now I am learning this was just after this mess had really come to a head. This caused me to wonder, “Had I known then what I know now, how would my life be different?”

At this time I was working full-time and I was also a part-time interim youth pastor. One of my adult youth sponsors asked me and my wife if we would like to attend the upcoming IBYC seminar. We agreed not know what in the world IBYC was all about. The week went by quickly. At times I felt like I had been trying to get a drink from a fire hydrant. The Sunday morning after the conference I was sharing with my senior pastor a few of the exciting principles I had learned when he abruptly stopped me and said, "You shouldn't believe everything that man has to say," This struck me as kind of "odd". Wasn't Mr. Gothard a learned man, after all he used tons and tons of scripture to back up his teachings? His decorum was impeccable on the screen. The people who were working the conference were cheerful and helpful. I truly thought that this man exuded "godliness". How in the world could someone question Mr. Gothard’s integrity? (I am now beginning to think he may have heard some rumblings through the grapevine.)

That position came to an end in December of 1980 and I had pretty much forgotten about my seminar experience. It wasn't until 1986 and three church staff positions later that our church took a group to what would be my second basic seminar, only now I was an alumni. That was soon followed by my first pastor's conference. These are some of the areas that made the biggest impact in my life:

1. I learned to honor my wife by always opening the car door for her. (Only once did she have to use the horn because I had forgot!)
2. I learned of the importance of eating wheat bread and it's healthy benefits and now my wife makes our bread totally from scratch! (I truly feel sorry for those who have to buy their bread from the store!)
3. I learned to take a more positive and definitive role as the head of my household, to be the spiritual leader and father that God wanted me to be. (This was an absolute life changer for me personally.)
4. I came to the conclusion that I should not demand that my wife work outside the home so we could have a larger and better home to live in. (We bought way more house than we should have and could only keep it if my wife would continue working outside the home.) As a result of this we determined that we would sell our home, pay off our credit cards and live debt free.
5. I agreed with my wife to having more children. She really desired to have another child. (I believed a lie that I could not equally love more than one child.)
6. I agreed with my wife that we should home school our only child who was struggling in a public school that had no walls between classes! (Can we say, SQUIRREL?)

The last three, 4,5 & 6, we made as a commitment to God and placed that commitment squarely in His hands. We set a goal date and God showed himself strong. This was demonstrated by putting off accepting a call to move to another church for 4 1/2 months. That church agreed to wait. Two days before our goal date, we sold our house (without ever putting it on the market and in an area that homes were still for sale the day we purchased ours), my wife quit her government job and with her sick leave and back vacation days paid off all our debts and our son finished his last day of public school education. At the end of the day we moved to our new church and I am still here almost 27 years later and loving it! Again, “Had I known then what I know now, how would my life be different?” (There is so much more to this story I wish I could share.)

The beginning of the summer of 1987 I started my new position as a Minister of Music and Education. That first year my wife and I kind of did our own thing in homeschooling our son. A year later my wife and I entered the ATIA program with our 12 year old son and our three month old son. Along with attending the first ATIA Parents Conference in Bloomington, I fell in love with the great hymns of the faith. This was from being introduced to Al Smith and his book on Hymn Histories. (I now have quite a collection of these books and frequently share them with my congregation.) Also, I was introduced to “Striving for Excellence” by Inge Pohl Cannon which led to an 18 month journey of changing my way of thinking about CCM and using tracks in my church. The untruths in this material will unravel and come into play later.

Joining ATIA started to create a great deal of tension between me and my mother. She had no issues with us homeschooling she just had issues with Mr. Gothard! She just couldn’t see how a man with no family or no children could advise others to do something he had not done himself especially when it came to family size. We felt absolutely comfortable letting God determine the number of children he wanted to bless us with. After our third son was born, she felt that we had just the right sized family and that we should stop! She then started dreading any family gathering and the possibility of hearing a “new announcement”. My mother also disagreed with the way we dressed our daughters in culottes and dresses. She did not like that we wouldn’t let them wear pants or shorts. There were other areas of concern dealing with Disney movies, Barbies, Cabbage Patch dolls etc. I could go on and on, but for now, the end of this story, we are now the blessed parents of three sons, three daughters and three “angels” (miscarriages). I truly love my mom and greatly miss her as she has passed. Again I wonder, “Had I known then what I know now, how would things be different?”

A couple of years passed and that was when the bondage truly started for me personally. It began with the feeling that I had to have approval from others who were also involved in ATIA. This was a such a bondage for me that at times, was personally frustrating and maddening. I dreaded having to fill out the "monthly" report. I constantly wondered, "Was my family doing what other ATIA families were doing?" I constantly feared that my family could not live up to the sky-high standards set by Mr. Gothard and ATIA program! I began to fear that when the phone rang it was going to be our curriculum coordinator chastising us after reviewing my reports. What if someone found out that we ate pork every now and then? Would somebody find out that we had a TV? Many times I felt that we really were not worthy to be an ATIA family because we supplemented the Wisdom booklets with other curriculum. We just didn’t look like the McKims and other families that were paraded across the conference stage each year. My family had flaws that we tried to hide by dressing and looking the ATIA way. (I look back and think how did I ever let myself get to that point!)

My first eye-opening moment that really grabbed my attention as to how Mr. Gothard would skew things, was when I attended my last Parents ATIA Conference in Knoxville. That year it was just me and my oldest son. I remember how towards the end of the conference all the students were given a sheet of paper with questions on it concerning music. All these students were instructed to fill out the "survey" with their parents basically looking over their shoulder. I kind of felt that was unfair to the students. Less than a year later, I was at a Pastor's conference and Mr. Gothard told the men that a survey of students was conducted and that 97% of them said that rock music was damaging and detrimental to one’s health and that families should any exposure at all costs. I mind flashed back to that night at the conference and thinking, "He's talking about that survey that was basically taken under duress!" He never once mentioned how the survey was taken or who the students were that took it. That is when the comment from my former senior pastor of years gone by started to haunt me. This is what started the process of my questioning the validity of ALL that Mr. Gothard taught and how easing it was for him to skew the facts to suit his agenda.

(Since then my views concerning music have greatly changed. I can't say that it happened over night or that it wasn't with some major struggles of dealing with my own ingrained legalism along with pressure from other like-minded families I was closely associated with.)

We got out of ATIA towards the summer of 1999. After living 12 years in a church staff house, we bought a home. (This is our only debt to this day!) Because of the expenses of setting up our new home there was no financial provision for our next years tuition. After all we had been taught if there was no provision then there wasn’t a need! We didn’t write or call with our explanation as to why we were not re-enrolling. We just faded into obscurity and not once did we get a call asking us why we were not re-enrolling. I guess they read our reports and thought it would not be that great a loss! I cannot tell you how freeing it was for me. “Free at last, free at last! Thank God, Almighty I am free at last!”

In time, many chains have fell, and continue to fall, as God reveals these areas of legalistic bondage I had allowed into my life and my position as the head of my family. In sharing this story I hope to show that there were some great things that I learned in this journey that I will never regret. I do not even remotely regret having our six children. I deeply love every one of my children, I see them all as true gifts from God! I am extremely proud of their talents and accomplishments, many of which they gained because we decided to home school. Therefore, I do not regret homeschooling them nor do I regret SOME of the Christian principles I learned from Bill Gothard's teaching and materials. As well, I do not regret the multitude of friendships made throughout the many IBLP & ATIA seminars and conferences I attended. Many of these are just as strong as they were in the beginning. However, I do realize that some of these dear friends are still involved with Mr. Gothard and these organizations and might result in our friendship coming to an abrupt halt. I truly hope that this will not happen. This is in no way a judgment on them.

I am sorry this was long, but this is my story, my thoughts and my true feelings. I hope I haven’t bored you with too many details but I feel that there might be some other former ATIA parents out there that might need to know that there are others that had the same experience, frustrations, uneasiness and fears. YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

Now...after 34 years...What if I had known then what I know now? Well let me tell you, I have given that to God and I delight in knowing that He loves me despite what I did or did not know! HALLELUJAH!
- Jonathan Owens February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  KH,
  Thank you for sharing. This is healing for me. I can't put into words
- Lisa (Cave) Drake February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Thank you so much, KH, for sharing your story. It brings to mind Genesis 50:20. "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." And this:
  
  "Now...after 34 years...What if I had known then what I know now? Well let me tell you, I have given that to God and I delight in knowing that He loves me despite what I did or did not know! HALLELUJAH!"
  
  God's grace! Hallelujah, indeed!
Leslie February 24, 2014 Reply

KH, thanks so much for your post. Especially the part about the tension with your Mom. My husband and I took 4 of our 6 children to IBLP in the 1980's. Our middle daughter and her husband got very involved and are now entrenched in it. They have 8 kids, ages 21-5. They have been homeschooling for 17 years. Each year they get more and more legalistic. They got very upset with our youngest daughter because of a Christian music station she had on. Now that a lot of the kids are older they are going the courtship route. The 21 year old told me it was God's will for her to marry, have many children and homeschool. The tension with this daughter and her family gets worse every year. They have distanced themselves from us not only physically, but emotionally. They gave up their careers in engineering and accounting 12 years ago and moved 800 miles away to farm. The kids are so isolated. We go see them every 18 months or so , but they never come see us or her siblings, nieces and nephews. This is really heartbreaking for us as grandparents, because we don't know these grand kids. I am sure they would benefit from having grandparents be a part of their lives. I am praying that with the fall from grace of DP and BG that their eyes will be opened. It's funny, but in September, before all this happened, I sent an email to all our kids apologizing for introducing them to the Bill Gothard Seminars. I said that I hoped the critical thinking skills we tried to teach them at home would help them discern the truth. Needless to say I was amazed that only 6 weeks later the foundations built on sand started toppling.

I am sure there are many many other grandparents out there who are hurting because of BG and ATI
- Julia Fetters February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Leslie, are you aware of the ATI Parent Recovery Group that RG started on FB? We would really benefit from your wisdom and insight and you will find those walking where you are walking. Come join us. Thank you for telling us your story here. SO many of us have similar stories to tell.
- KH February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Leslie, I have to say that my relationship with my mom never escalated to the degree that you are experiencing with your daughter, S-I-L and grandchildren. I can't think of a man whose teachings have split more families than that of Mr. Gothard! Those entrapped are so blinded by their loyalty that if they could see what we see they would deny that that was them. Sadly their idea of showing Christian brotherly love is only offered to those who think like they do! Everyone is is seen as being back-slid den heathens or full-on raging pagans. I am deeply sorry for the sorrows and grief you are having to endure! My prayer is also that the fall that is soon coming, will open many an eye to what we have discovered ourselves.
  
  -KH
  - Leslie February 24, 2014 Reply
    
    KH, you have hit the nail on the head. When we visited last June the 19 year old kept talking about seeking out like minded people. Mt birthday card from my daughter was filled with bible verses about being saved. No happy birthdat wishes just verses. Hello!! I was saved in 1972. I feel very disrespected by her and her family. It's hard not to take it personally.
Mike February 24, 2014 Reply

Wow. BG's statement that the 5th commandment is the most important sure explains a lot. But despite my years in ATI and working for IBLP (including working at Basic/Advanced Seminars), I don't recall Gothard ever saying that. Anyone else?

Which makes me wonder: did his belief change post-1980 or did he just stop using that particular talking point?
- "Hannah" February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  I've heard him say some very similar things. Not just those words, perhaps, but his attitude was rather that the "principle of Authority", was all-encompassing. He had to make it excessively important; it was his leverage to control people. First, convince everyone of how all-important authority is; secondly, convince everyone you are their authority. Voila! Instant control! Note that this works much better if you can also convince the masses that you are "God's anointed".
- TiaraLi February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  When Jesus was asked what the most important command was he said, 'love God and love each other'.
  
  When Gothard said what the most important command was he said, 'let other people control you' (in essence).
  
  I find that interesting because a) it is clear that Jesus and Gothard are not going in the same direction and do not have the same goals, and b) whereas Jesus wanted us to be loving, Gothard was merely (mis)using the bible to control people and get what he wanted.
- Jeff Gill February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  For the sake of accuracy, I don't think BG continues to claim that honour your parents is the greatest commandment. In this ATI promo booklet, p.4 it states that “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart . . . .” is the greatest commandment.
- Jonathan February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  While I think he learned to tone down the language used, I assure you that the message of parental and positional authority being more important than anything else did not diminish. As of my Training Center experience (2004-2009) he was still touting authority as the be all and end all of spirituality. I never heard that the fifth commandment was the most important (The "Commands of Christ" had taken that spot by the time I was neck deep in it), but phrases like this were spoken often:
  
  "If you don't understand authority you can't understand anything else about God."
  
  "Your relationship with God can't be right unless you're joyfully under the authorities in your life."
  
  Those are pretty dang close to direct quotes from conversations with Bill in 08-09. Scary stuff.
  
  So no, I don't think his belief/teaching has changed. His delivery has though, so that's worth noting.
  - David February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Of course he said, believed, and taught these things. The authority teaching is the cornerstone of Bill Gothard's entire system. It is also heresy. It is the same heresy that has given power to every religious tyrant for the last 2000 years. "I am God's authority. He speaks through me and works through me. It is my job to hear from God for you. It is your job to submit." What this does is completely undermine a believer's personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ -- the ONE Mediator between God and man. Indeed, it imposes another mediator -- a supposed authority -- between the believer and God. Now you cannot hear from God for yourself -- your relationship with Him is filtered through another. This is a denial of the very definition of Christianity, which is, "Christ in YOU (each of us.)" This heresy is JUST THAT BAD.
Leslie February 24, 2014 Reply

Thanks Julia, I will be joining. Looking forward to it.
Beth February 24, 2014 Reply

Not sure how widely this is known, but another thing BG was inconsistent in was his suing of other Christians. Yes, you read that right. BG sued a group a Christian businessmen who tried to support and help out the music ministry the late Al Smith. It's a sad, ugly story (I'm related to one of the parties in the lawsuit). How could he sue them? By simply declaring that anyone who would stand up to him ( BG ) obviously wasn't a Christian, so therefore he was free to sue them.
- 'Megan' February 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Hi Beth, I have never heard of this, do you have any articles or websites with this information?
  - Beth February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    I haven't been able to locate any articles or websites about it, but I heard first-hand the stories about it. Maybe you could try contacting the children of Al Smith if you're interested in investigating. If you google "Living Hymns," you will find their contact information as they continue the music ministry.
    The mods here have my e-mail address and can contact me personally if they want to know more.
    - chb February 25, 2014
      
      Beth, I would really like to know more about this. Throughout the '80s and '90s, Al Smith was a great friend to IBLP. He came to HQ a number of times and spoke to the staff -- and he had a huge influence on me during my years on staff. Many will remember his leading of the singing at large IBLP/ATI gatherings. I will always be grateful for him.
      
      Perhaps RG would consider an article . . .
    - Beth February 25, 2014
      
      I'll ask to see what kind of detail those involved that I know would want to go public with.
- David February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  A long time friend of mine with a lot of money had put it in her will that upon her death a six figure amount be given to IBLP. But she began to see the error in this ministry, and was right in the middle of changing her will when she died in 2010. Despite the fact that it is a documented fact that she wanted to change her will -- notice was given by her in writing to her attorney to that effect that she wanted to disinherit IBLP -- she did not live to sign the final revised will. IBLP decided to sue her estate for the money. You heard me right. As of 2013, this lawsuit was still going on. I know this for a fact because my closest fried is the executor of the estate. Are these the actions of a Christian person, or organization?
  - Brumby February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    I have seen this gesture occur in other cults and followings as well, inside and outside of the "church." Willing the heritance to an institution of some sort is a cold blow to one's children and children's children. Not to use the Bible as argumentative material, but I'm sure even it would contain an obscure verse or two regarding providing an inheritance for your children - not another group entity. Such a gesture is misplaced priority on the part of the parent. ATI should be ashamed to accept the gesture, especially when living descendents of the deceased are present, available, and wish to take ownership of the inheritance. For shame.
  - Sad February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    I would encourage your friend to share his story with RG. Actions like that need broad exposure to the light of day. Once again, it seems BG doth not practice what he preacheth. We need to put a stop to this stuff.
Carrie HOLLY (as in pilot ATIA family) McMahan February 24, 2014 Reply

Alfred? I don't see you responding much.

Please give Mr. Gothard my salutations. I await his response to these well documented allegations. This was not just his life and "ministry" that he has drug through this quagmire. These are lives, souls, minds and futures of real people. I understand that to the mind of a narcissist this is of little consequence, but a day is fast approaching that one man cannot avoid the thousands of lives he has negatively impacted.

Please be clear. I am not angry. I am not bitter. I am informed. I will not be silent. Nor will I go away. Neither will this moment we have come to...a reckoning. If you and others cannot understand, then I will explain to you like a child ..rip the band aid off Prolonging this is just making it more painful. Or I will tell you like an equal. Face this like a man. Look it in the eyes. Face your accusers and give an answer. My son says it best...those who have nothing to hide...hide nothing.

It's time to step up.

My name is Carrie Holly. Now McMahan. Feel free to contact me at any time.
409/791-8485

I'm tired iof this dancing around issues
- greg r February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  This:
  
  but a day is fast approaching that one man cannot avoid the thousands of lives he has negatively impacted.
  
  Lord knows, but I'm thinking that Bill is going (to his peril) drag this out. I hope not, but if he does, his name will have to become (already is ??) a byword to believers. His current silence does NOT bode well.
- Lori February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Powerful. Beautifully expressed, Carrie.
- Alfred Corduan March 2, 2014 Reply
  
  Whatever I am, I also am not a "dancer", Carrie. If you have more information that I should know, I don’t mind making the contact, although I would prefer email. Click on my name, you will find my email on my website.
  
  I have spent a decade digging into these allegations, head on. Gone to Bill, gone to his accusers directly. Point by point through Veinot and Henzel’s book. No band-aids here. What I do find it a lot of people who would love for Mr. G to go down hard for reasons unrelated to moral transgressions. The posted statement from Dr. Schulz, what was the bottom line? He was doubting the doctrine. Dr. Rademacher was upfront: The moral issues are a means to get people to reject his teachings. What he teaches offended him . . . and a lot of others.
  
  That being the case, it might be pretty difficult to separate facts from possibilities and prejudices and unproven allegations. I am meticulous about this. As I see it, the following has been proven:
  
  O Bill lead several secretaries on, treating them like sweethearts – lap sitting, lying side by side gazing at the stars - with every expectation on their part that he was serious about marriage, only to have no such intent. How he conducted himself was inconsistent with his public high standards, and therefore disillusioning.
  
  O He completely mishandled the scandal of his brother, choosing to ignore the warnings of others, believing the problem to be much less than others already knew and trusting in his senses to guide him on the relative severity of the issues. The allegation is made that he knew and still sent young women up to spend time with Steve, only to have Steve compromise them. I know him well enough to understand that he – naively, and perhaps proudly - believed the problem to be resolved before he sent them there.
  
  O He has had repressed passions that he interpreted as other motivations, which allowed him to engage in behaviors that others found almost universally inappropriate. To his credit the “long handshakes”, the footsie, the compliments, the gifts, the late night counseling or work sessions with young ladies were all out in the open . . . in front of others. But things that others warned him about but he never saw – until recently, hopefully – as bad.
  
  He has looked me in the eye and told me several times that he has never seen nor touched the private parts of a woman. I believe him – and I understand that that includes any type of “fondling”, petting, whatever. I am on record that I do not believe “Charlotte’s” account . . . and I hear that he has emphatically said the same when asked. That type of thing is what the Board must objectively investigate. I will follow up on all of that when it is my time to do so. Those are issues, which if true, would change my relationship to him and the Institute dramatically. I can find a way to “explain away” the other behaviors . . . and I most certainly do not believe him guilty of heresy . . . but I cannot explain away crossing the line into overt sexual contact. I cannot rest until I know for certain – for myself - that this did not occur.
  - greg r March 2, 2014 Reply
    
    Alfred: you will, again, get some traffic from this post, I will remind you of one thing (for now) from that 1983 transcript that you've glossed over: repeatedly, EVERY ONE of those on that conference call said that Bill was a liar. Is that a big deal to you ?? I would be happy to reread the article and count up all the lies (I'm sure there are more). Yes, we are all liars, in one sense, but not all of us are in charge of a ministry, in a leadership position over thousands.
    Big deal, no big deal ?? You can live with that ??
Joel Horst February 25, 2014 Reply

There are a couple passages that the Lord showed me yesterday that I think apply all too well to Bill.

2 Corinthians 10:17-18 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Recently, I went through my mom's archive of newsletters going back to the early 90's. One consistent theme I noticed throughout was the steady drumbeat of "great things are happening!" Even as it moved into the 2000's and we started noticing that ATI families were not turning out the way we thought they should, Bill kept up the steady stream of positive reports about how God was doing "great things!" It wasn't until about 2005 or 2006 (as I recall) that he started hinting that things weren't quite as great as he had reported.

The "Letter from Bill Gothard" (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/Letter-from-Bill-Gothard.pdf) shows that same pattern continuing--Bill talking about how "great things" happen and can happen through IBLP.

But God says that it is the ones HE approves of who are approved.

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I hesitate to share this, because it is so strong. Yet God warns us that Satan's workers will sometimes appear to be ministers of righteousness. That is exactly what Bill appeared to be. Yet, his works show that he does not fear the Lord. Samuel Schultz warned about that in 1980, and Bill's own words in 2011 indicate the same thing: "...if we are not leading others to Christ and discipling them, there is little or no motivation to be different than the world." (see link above, bottom of page 1) In other words, according to Bill, there is no real reason to obey Jesus, other than to be an example of "higher standards" to others. Either that, or merely obeying Jesus will not make us different than the world (not true).

When we see a pattern of bad fruit and works, we must beware. He who DOES righteousness is righteous. He who lives in sin is of the Devil.

John 8:44-45 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. -- Jesus
- Timothy Baldridge February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  I can't express how true this is. At my Basic Taining promotion at ALERT, we stood at attention for two hours while Gothard gave a speech about all the wonderful things happening in IBLP. He spoke of the Nashville Training Center and how it was this wonderful place full of medical equipment that could be used for God's kingdom.
  
  It wasn't until later in my stay at ALERT that I actually went to Nashville, and learned the truth. The Nashville TC was an incredibly run-down building and only parts of it were fit to live in (as in actually approved by the health inspectors). Even then, it was a hospital, not a place to live. But that didn't stop IBLP from having dozens of people live there during the regional conferences. The only item that I would consider "medical equipment" was a MRI machine that was too big/heavy to remove when the last owner vacated the place. Most of that place stayed vacant and unclean (as in there was blood on the floor in some places still).
  
  But none of that stopped Gothard from bragging, or his followers from saying "he's just a visionary, sometimes he gets carried away when he thinks of all the potential"
  
  One man's visionary is another man's liar I guess. Shouldn't we just make our yes be yes?
  - Jonathan February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Not just the regional conferences, Tim. My family (all 9 of us) lived in a doctor's office in the building for almost 6 months. 500,000 sq. feet of eerily lit hospital and office space. Great for airsoft and flashlight tag, terrible for any practical use.
    
    One of my first realizations to be careful of what came out of Bill's mouth was when over and over again he would introduce my family and the wonderful work we were facilitating at the Nashville TC - all of it one grey shade away from a flat out lie. We were maintaining a dieing building. Sure, we hosted a couple of health conferences and a regional conference, but to hear Bill tell it we were healing people by the scores and on the cusp of being a fully functional medical facility. The only thing we were on the cusp of was being shut down for unhealthy living conditions. I'm still not sure how that kitchen passed a health inspection to feed 2,000 people at the regional conference (which we did...God only knows how).
    
    Yeah, we always wrote it off as Bill being a visionary, but I'm with you. Time to call a spade a spade. Isn't a one of the marks of somebody actually working toward the goals of the Kingdom transparency and honesty?
  - eva February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Does IBLP still own that building in Nashville? Maybe the assests of the organization (I won't use the M word) aren't as high as stated if this is the type of condition some are in.
    - Jonathan February 25, 2014
      
      I only know as recent as 2011. At that time they owned it but were renting out space to a school of some kind. My wife was curious about all the stories I told so on a road trip we stopped by to see the place. Virtually nothing had been updated/renovated or even changed since I had lived there in 2004. A few thousand square feet were livable/functioning and the rest was literally falling apart.
      
      The building and real estate are still valuable even if not functional though. The assessed value is still what the asset is worth.
  - Shana February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    I was in the first EQUIP group. The year I spent at the ITC was my first and last year at any training center. When I compared what was actually happening to what BG was telling people back home, I realized all the good was grossly exaggerated. He spoke of all IBLP's other endeavors in the same tone. In my book, some one who exaggerates about everything is no longer exaggerating, but flat out lying.
- Catherine February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Your words are not too strong. Satan is indeed at work, and the "Gothard gospel" is not the only false one at work in the churches today. We need to be careful neither to add to nor subtract from God's word. And all the more so as we see the day approaching.
  - Lori February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    What Catherine said.
David February 25, 2014 Reply

I'm a career accountant and I can say that auditing an organization such as IBLP would not be difficult at all. Give me a room and the records and within a week you would have your answer. That is not because I'm a wiz. It is because even if people try to hide it, or falsify records, accounting is control -- the truth is there, one way or another. There is always a trail.
- Frank Rizzo February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  My wife worked for a forensic accounting firm. I can tell you without a doubt the things that can be found from a good accountant who knows how and where to look is amazing. Offices torched and no paper survives...just some time and effort and BOOM answers.
  - Lori February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    So, does anyone know of a way to get something like that rolling?
    - Daniel February 27, 2014
      
      I think the financials would be in fairly good order since 1988. That's when they joined ECFA.
      That certification requires a yearly external audit by a CPA firm.
      Probably a lot of questionable decisions, but nothing illegal.
      IBLP currently uses auditing firm LWBJ, according to thier website.
greg r February 25, 2014 Reply

Alfred: as expected, your comment has a conversation started, I just wanted to assure you that 1)many here are praying for you, the RG staff, and of course ourselves and Bill; 2)strong words have been typed your way because these posters love you: faithful are the wounds of a friend; I hope you are able to take all this in the spirit that it's offered.
- Alfred Corduan March 2, 2014 Reply
  
  Thanks, Greg R. I really appreciate you saying that. All the while expecting you will be back in my face pretty quick. :-) I don't mind.
Greg M. February 25, 2014 Reply

So, was the "group from the south" that this document mentions and who where perhaps contacted by Bill G. SPECIFICALY to help him with the scandal really from Bob Jones University? Because that is what I am hearing. That Bob Jones III and Bob Wood came personally to "help" with this situation at the bequest of Bill Gothard? And that once there Bob Jones III and Bob Wood actually blueprinted the cover-up and how it occurred? If this is true it is a bombshell of epic proportions, and documentation should be found detailing the "Bobs" visit to help Gothard. This could go deeper than I ever thought possible.
mitchell chapman February 25, 2014 Reply

from mitchell chapman

If you need help and your under 18 you can get the help you need if you feel you are being exploited. One site is the United States Department of state, office to monitor and combat Trafficking in Persons. The other site is United States Department of Health and Human Services.
Another site the United States Department of Justice. Another site is
National center for missing and Exploited Children. Another site is the polaris Project. There is a hotline you can call from the National Human Trafficking Resource Center which is 1 800 373 7888. Also if you are out of state the United Nations Office on Drugs and
Crime. I am sure there are more so maybe others can list them.
"Shane" February 25, 2014 Reply

So even if you could rationalize disobeying the board because of your call to preach, you must remember that the board was there because they supported Bill's message. If Bill would have submitted to the board, the same message would have been preached. He apparently lost his cool and could have saved the whole thing had he simply gone through the motions of his own message. The board was doing nothing except applying Bill's teachings.
greg r February 25, 2014 Reply

@Everybody: I don't Facebook much, what is situation like over @ Friends of... ?? Any sense of give and take, a movement towards an epiphany...?/ or is it circle the wagons and scorch the earth time ??
- Jonathan Owens February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Are you talking about the Friends of Mr. G Facebook page? If so, the admin will kick you off if you touch the invisible electric fence. Some have minorly disagreed with IBLP over there and have been left alone. Many others have been kicked off for questioning.
Lori February 25, 2014 Reply

The forum topics over at Home-School.com (the website for Mary Pride's Practical Homeschooling Magazine)get hundreds, often thousands of views. Nearly everyone who reads the forum is a homeschooling mom. I just started a new topic there entitled "Concern for families involved with Bill Gothard / ATI / IBLP". Within minutes there were 5 views. If anyone wants to go over there and chime in, it only takes minutes to sign up. This is one place to get the word out to homeschoolers.

Here's the URL for the topic/thread: http://www.home-school.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47501
- Jim K. February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Even money says that the thread gets deleted. Hope not, but my experience has been that topics critical of Gothard have a fairly high mortality rate on conservative Christian homeschool boards.
  
  Jim K.
  - Lori February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    This could very well be. Hope not. But I did a search on the website for Bill Gothard and came up with next to nothing. In fact, Mary Pride wrote a very pithy piece called "Patriarchy, Meet Matriarchy" in which she distanced herself from the Christian patriarchy movement: http://www.home-school.com/Articles/patriarchy-meet-matriarchy.php
    
    I sent the staff of the website a message warning them about the 40+ years scandal that's being revealed over here at RG. I thought Mrs. Pride would want to know, since a Google search of "Bill Gothard" brings up five color photos with names under their "People also searched for" feature and one of them is Mary Pride. I thought she might want to write a piece distancing herself from BG since she doesn't seem to be connected in any way.
- esbee February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  I went and joined and left a comment which is below but I did not see any other comments below yours. I do hope they are open minded and strong in their faith not to be put off by differing opionions. Heck, even the apostles did not see eye to eye on everything.
  
  Here is what I wrote......
  
  I am a retired public school teacher - BUT I have always been for parental choice if they want to homeschool- I have seen what goes on in public schools and teachers' hands tied to do anything about it.
  
  That said- 30 years ago I helped a homeschool family who used Gothard materials with their children. I was impressed with how God was brought into every lesson. Then they moved. I got a position at a public school (which I knew was something that Gothard warned against but my lifestyle of horses, cats, art and wearing jeans, cowboy boots AND married without children automatically disqualified me from ever being part of the Gothard or any other legalist life style.)
  
  BUT after visiting Recovering Grace and reading the stories by those who suffered abuse, legalism and squashing of their personalities, I am highly suspect that Gothard is not the man he has made himself out to be.
  
  I hope this forum does not do the same thing and squash what may appear to be an "evil report" when in actuality it is a report about evil.
  
  I am sure there are others with outgoing or a different kind of personality who may not line up exactly with what Gothard/legalism/QF and other legalist sects of Christianity says is how you are supposed to live in order to bring God's blessings on your life, who would like to hear about those who have not seen the success that was promised by following those sects' rules. (Phew, that was a long sentence but I could not figure out how to make it shorter.)
  - Lori February 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Great! So far today there have been 88 views of that thread!
Bill Gothard: the Saga Continues February 25, 2014 Reply

[…] Recovering Grace posted a letter from Dr. Samuel Schultz, a member of the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) Board who had worked with the Institute […]
Shane February 25, 2014 Reply

A graphic illustration of the problem with trying to live Gothard's understanding of law and principle:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/images/36517.jpg
- Lori February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Hahaha - I'd love to see someone come up with something like this based on IBLP teachings!
- Larne Gabriel February 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Shane,
  
  Thanks, I needed that humor! This would be right up Gothard's alley!
  
  Larne Gabriel
The GOTHARD Files: 1983 Transcript | Recovering Grace February 26, 2014 Reply

[…] The Basic Problem […]
Contractor February 26, 2014 Reply

Well after much thought I feel like I need to share. I am a former student of ati as well. I sense a lot of hurting people sharing on this website and for that I pray Gods grace will cover you. First a word to all the people sharing scripture condemning bill. He who is without sin let him cast the first stone, how many of you men have ever had a lustful thought? That's what I thought,everyone of you, in Gods book you are an adulterer. I am outraged at bills conduct towards those dear girls in his care and for that he deserves punishment I personally believe bill is guilty of many things and that it probably would b best if the institution would be closed down but as the saying goes if this work is of satan then it will collapse on its own but if it is of God who wants to try and stand in front of it. I personally don't think that bill will be brought down by a website sharing testimonies of anonymous people but rather by someone having the backbone to take this whole thing to court. I have felt like RG comments section has turned into somewhat of a gossip place( ie "I think I may have heard such and such").
I'm devastated by the revelations of bill and his brothers misconduct and think its good that RG is sharing what they know.and no I will not be enrolling my family in ati. But for all the others remember its a free country if you don't agree with iblp teaching ,guess what it's a free country go listen to someone else. And another thing the thoughts that have been shared about the pastors that have listened to bills teachings are not qualified to lead a church is just down right ludicrous!! I'm a pastors kid and my dad is one of the most Godly men I know and he has listened to the seminars. ... I'm not gona bother going farther because that thought is just absurd.
And one more thing rather than trying to convince Alfred with smart arguments rather pray and encourage him to seek Gods face for his family.
But what do I know I'm just a building contractor, and btw my brother is licensed attorney and yes he is an attorney and he is very good at his job, like giving solutions to this situation. God bless

Sorry for the bad writing skills, I was homeschooled. Lol
Lynn February 26, 2014 Reply

Contractor, "ludicrous" is on the SAT.
Rusty March 1, 2014 Reply

There's an old saying from an anonymous writer that says; "If your input doesn't exceed your output, then your upkeep will be your downfall"! I hope and pray that Mr. Gothard is able to stand strong in the Lord with a "Joseph dilemma" from these allegations; but if not, then it goes to show you we are one miserable sad influence on a sick society to want to help people turn to God! If our Christian leaders can't keep their pants on, and their hands and speech to themselves we might as well shut our mouths and let the world walk over us!!
Richard Bouchie March 1, 2014 Reply

Our family attended IBYC, Advanced IBLP, Pastors seminars and ATIA in its second year. During our ten year involvement, when we became aware of problems, we prayed about them. As serious things came to light, we were disappointed and felt let down. Because we were not at headquarters, we didn't know the extent or seriousness of events.

The Lord has taught me a valuable lesson, specifically, that I am not accountable for decisions others make, but I am accountable for decisions I make.
When God places me in a position or situation, I should not be hasty in getting out of it, but do what I can to learn from it and be grateful to God in such circumstances. If I find myself in a position where I am violating Scripture or my conscience, then I need to speak out and take a stand. I need to warn others to stay away from that situation.

When we find ourselves involved in judging a moral dilemma, our decisions should be made with the approach to correct and to restore others to fellowship. If they are unrepentant, we need to take a hard look at Titus 3:10. If one who has made a choice (heretic) refuses to heed a warning, you leave them alone. We are to warn them twice, but not to persist beyond that or we bring hardship to ourselves and interfere with God's Hand working in that person.

It is a simple lesson, but may be hard to follow because we have emotions and relationships all wrapped up in it. Nonetheless, it is consistent with Scripture. Ignore it at your own peril or obey it for God's blessing.

We are each responsible to teach our own children, not pass it off on Bill Gothard, the state or a private school. We are accountable to God for our children's training. If we pass it to someone else, then we are jointly responsible, just as Bill was for his brothers improper behavior when he made decisions that effected others working under or around him. I believed Bill when he said he had repented and worked toward restoring his family relationships.

Whether he did or not is in God's Hand, not mine. His choices, his behavior, does not make my performance before God any better or any worse. As we judge among ourselves, it should be with love, with forgiveness, with the intent to restore, but it should not be with blinders on. We are to be responsible for those under our authority that our decisions and actions will effect.

If the Board of IBLP has decided that Bill is under discipline, and that he has not honored the spirit of that discipline, then we are foolish to be complicit in ignoring their advice and direction. Anyone can do just that, but it then becomes their problem and they should not blame the Board or hold them responsible.

When you mess around an old cesspool where a sewer drained, you will find that it has no odor once the surface hardens, but when you break through the top layer of scum, the stink rises. I don't believe that is what is being done here, but there is a lesson for all of us, and that is that we can't go back and live our lives over again, or raise our children over again. We have one opportunity to get it right, then it becomes an example for others, either good or poor, but it is an example.

We need to rely on the Holy Spirit for discernment. He has placed certain men in charge and it behooves us to trust Christ through their leading.

Dick Bouchie
IBLP Board Failure: Ignorance or Negligence? | Recovering Grace June 2, 2014 Reply

[…] The Basic Problem […]
Anne May 28, 2015 Reply

Wow. So interesting to see that Dr. Hemwall was on the board of this organization from this document. He was someone who garnered a LOT of respect in the Wheaton/fundie community. I remember though that I once went on a medical mission with Dr. and Mrs. Hemwall to Honduras in 1993. While there to assist locals with pain injections at a church - doing prolotherapy - Dr. Hemwall broke the arm of a Honduran patient by pulling too hard on it while he was trying to straighten her arm. It was a big ordeal and when the local authorities came to take the woman to a real hospital to set her arm, Dr. Hemwall lied to them and told them that it was her fault and that her arm was already broken. I went to Mrs. Hemwall and told her that Dr. Hemwall was wrong and that was not what happened and that I knew because I was in the room. She gave me a very steely response that I will never forget..."Oh no. YOU have it wrong. That is NOT what happened. Nobody is going to say anything different than what Dr. Hemwall says and jeopardize our work here." The woman with the broken arm also told me that Dr. Hemwall did not tell the truth about what happened, but she felt she had no recourse as she was Honduran and he was the American doctor. I saw a very dark side of Dr. Hemwall that day. The reason I'm relating this story is because I believe it reflects the character of Dr. Hemwall and is consistent with the culture of corruption we see was rampant with the Gothard organization, and consistent with what is reflected in this document. I find it totally credible, based upon my experience with Dr. Hemwall, that he would knowingly defend a character like Gothard.

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