One of the outreaches of Recovering Grace is the production of fliers, letters, and pamphlets for peaceful distribution at IBLP events. This is one such letter, written to Basic Seminar attendees.
Dear Basic Seminar Attendee,
The person who handed you this letter tonight cares about you. They care enough that they took time to bring it to you because they believe in the message and want you to understand before it is too late. This person is someone who grew up in a household influenced by the teachings of Dr. Bill Gothard and the Advanced Training Institute, a homeschooling organization he founded in 1984. They bring you this letter in hopes that you and/or your children can avoid the heartaches and struggles which they have had to deal with. They bring you this letter because they wish someone had been around years ago to tell them and their parents the truth contained in it.
UNFULFILLED DREAMS
When Dr. Gothard presents the Basic Seminar, he promises true and lasting results. He claims to be giving the world a “new” approach to life. As recent as the late 1990’s he cast a vision for a ministry that would multiply from a generation of large, godly families into a generation of Christ-followers numbering in the thousands. Unfortunately, that dream has not been fulfilled. The latest statistics provided by an anonymous IBLP staff member indicates that less than 1% of children raised in the Advanced Training Institute use the program with their own children. In addition to this staggering fact, many children raised within the program have fallen away from the Christian faith entirely. There have even been at least three murders committed by students raised in committed ATI families. In a program that guaranteed successful children, how can this be happening?
THE MISSING INGREDIENT: GRACE
At the center of Christian orthodoxy is the concept of God’s grace. The Greek word for grace, charis, literally means “unmerited favor.” It is through this unmerited favor of God that we have been given life, salvation, and the transforming power of God in our lives. It is through the grace of God that every good thing happens, even when we do not deserve it. Yet, the Bible teaches that grace can be resisted to the point where God no longer offers it.
We believe that the primary answer to why so many ATI/IBLP families have ended up broken is found in the fact that amidst all of Dr. Gothard’s teachings, he leaves out the key ingredient that is central to all of a Christian’s life: the grace of God. Yes, he uses the term grace, but he subtly redefines it so that it is no longer about God’s favor but about our performance as Christians.
On his website, Dr. Gothard defines grace as “the desire and the power that God gives us to do His will.” On the surface, this definition seems to be okay. But what happens when you use that definition in the context of Ephesians 2:8? The meaning changes drastically: “For by the desire and the power that God gives us to do His will you have been saved through faith.” Suddenly, salvation becomes a matter of behavior rather than God’s free gift. This is one reason why so many of Dr. Gothard’s followers have abandoned Christianity. When our salvation is based upon something WE do rather than what GOD does, eventually we will grow disillusioned, frustrated, and spiritually suicidal.
God’s work of grace in our lives cannot be reduced to a set of principles. As you go through the seminar, we want you to notice all of the guarantees Dr. Gothard gives. Do you notice how many times he says that if you do X, you WILL get result Y? That if we just put in our quarter and turn the handle, we get our prize, as if God were a candy machine? Does God really work that way? No. God works in each of our lives as unique individuals according to His divine plan.
Jesus did not give us step by step directions to show us how to live a sanctified life. He taught us through parables and through example to help us understand His heart. He showed us that the outer shell of our body is not who we truly are. The inner person is what matters. God desires that we seek a relationship with Him rather than follow a set of basic principles about Him. At the end of this week, ask yourself, “Did I come out of the seminar thinking more about seeking God, or did I walk away thinking about all of the principles I must follow?”
THE MISUSED TOOL: GOD’S WORD
One of the things that stand out about the Basic Seminar is the amount of Scripture that Dr. Gothard uses. In fact, there are so many Scriptures used throughout the seminar that it is humanly impossible to look them up as the seminar is in progress. The average attendee simply accepts that the verses being used are appropriate and being applied carefully and correctly.
In 2 Timothy 2:15, we are commanded to be students of the Scripture who are capable of “rightly dividing the word of truth.” This means that we are to ascertain the truest meaning of every Bible passage. Unfortunately, our study has shown that Dr. Gothard fails to use Scripture in such a manner. Rather than taking each passage in its appropriate context and discerning what the author originally intended, he takes single verses of Scripture and uses them to validate whatever point he is currently making. This practice is known as “proof-texting,” or eisegesis.
The result is that many of Dr. Gothard’s ideas and principles are simply secular philosophy, with single verses taken out of context to prove his points. He then urges his followers to buy into “hidden” principles which he has discovered by carefully examining the Scriptures. These principles are often more enticing than the plain meaning of the biblical Text. This is why you will rarely see Dr. Gothard teach the historical, grammatical, and cultural meaning of an entire Bible chapter to determine what the original author actually meant. We would challenge you to go home and look up every verse that is used during the seminar and read it in the original context. If you need help understanding the context of a verse, go find a set of commentaries written by a respected scholar. And then, once you have done that, ask yourself this key question: If all these principles are really so important and non-optional, why aren’t they laid out specifically in Scripture as clear-cut commands? Why does it take someone like Dr. Gothard to help us understand these “hidden” meanings?
THE MANIPULATIVE METHOD: ANECDOTES
Another powerful tool that Dr. Gothard uses in the Basic Seminar is that of the anecdote. Merriam-Webster dictionary defines anecdote as a “short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident.” As you go through the seminar, take note of the number of times Dr. Gothard utilizes anecdotes to validate one of his points. And then take note of how many anecdotal stories he tells without giving any references, full names, or other details that would let you look them up and make sure he is sharing them accurately.
In our experience working with IBLP and Dr. Gothard, we have discovered that there is a very strong tendency within IBLP to twist or manipulate the facts of a story in order to prove a point. In the study of logic, this is known as a logical fallacy of incomplete or suppressed evidence, also commonly referred to as “cherry-picking.” This practice is deceitful because not only is one manipulating a story to prove a point, but the speaker often fails to share any instances or anecdotes where an opposite result of a behavior was true. We see this practice quite often in politics when a public official uses a story in order to elicit an emotional gut reaction from the audience. As children growing up under Bill Gothard’s teachings, we believed that these anecdotes were completely biblical and accurate, thus leading us to make hasty commitments that God never intended us to make, many of which ultimately cost us dearly.
THE ULTIMATE MOTIVATOR: GUILT
2 Timothy 1:7 says “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” As followers of Jesus, our Heavenly Father desires that we walk in the freedom provided to us through his grace. Indeed, we are forgiven of our sins and no longer need to fear the eternal consequences of our sins. We are free to walk in new life, and free to pursue the holiness that comes as we long for a deeper, more personal relationship with God. God no longer wants us to live in the guilt of our sins, but to forget those things that are behind, pressing on towards the goal to which God has called us.
As the first generation to grow up under the teachings of Dr. Gothard, we found that attending the Basic Seminar or any IBLP-sanctioned event inevitably led to the horrible result of personal guilt. We found that no longer was our Savior sufficient to lead us into Christlikeness, but now we had to follow the seven principles for this, the five steps for that, or the three key concepts to overcome whatever sin was being discussed. Certainly we should seek to follow Christ’s commands as a path to Christlikeness; but as we have already established, many of Dr. Gothard’s teachings are not Christ’s commands at all, but rather his hidden principles. Thus, we no longer followed Christ. We followed a man. We forgot that true freedom doesn’t come from moral behavior, but rather by complete abandon to the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only as we walk in His grace will we receive true freedom and the fruit of holiness. We must never confuse guilt with conviction. One (guilt) weighs us down and makes us feel unworthy of love, and the other (conviction) makes us feel loved in spite of our unworthiness.
Our experience has been that the teachings of Bill Gothard lead not to spiritual freedom, but to spiritual bondage. That is the reason we are reaching out to those who have yet to experience the captivity we have suffered. We feel God’s call to lead people to return to His grace as the true source of spiritual freedom. Please know that this letter is written in love and not a desire to hurt or harm. We only desire that each child of God find the joy, peace, and confidence that come from seeking a relationship with the God who loves us and gives us new mercy and grace each and every morning.
Very powerful.
We worked with the Atlanta Basic for a number of years and even labored at the Indianapolis building for a very long week when it was being redone.
Luckily we stayed away from ATI and sent our four daughters to public school. Saw this happening to you guys but couldn't really define it until your writings.
Thanks for sharing. We hope your work spreads however I'm sure you'll feel the backlash from the groupies. Hang in there!!
Two thoughts for you, God's Grace is Amazing and Jesus said "My yoke is easy and My burden is light". I've found both to be so very true.
This is a rediculous article. First of all, grace as defined God's power in and through me to accomplish God's will fits perfectly into Ephesians 2:8-9. If I wasn't saved by God's power then what was I saved by? Secondly, Christ himself gave his followers things to do. "Come unto me al ye that labour..."Matt 11:28 and he promises if we do he will "I will give you rest". “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”Matthew 16:24 KJV that verse certainly sounds like our Lord said to do something. In James it tells us not to be hearers only but doers of the Word. That is what it means to be a disciple, a disciplined one, obeying our Lord. Bill Gotthsrd is not God he was simply a teacher. If you thought he was your God that's not his fault that is yours. Even Jesus who was the perfect teacher had people he taught that chose not to follow his teachings, namely Judas. We went to the seminar, we used ATI, we have 5 sons, 4 chose to follow Jesus, 1strayed away. That is not the fault of the teacher or the materials taught that is the fault of the sin nature of man. Praise be to Jesus my Prodigal has come back to the father's house. This bit about murders being committed by "IBLP/ATI families being blamed on that organization is ludicrous, will you also blame God the Father for Cain killing Abel? Was it because God didn't have good teachings and principles to follow? No! God gave man free will, he desires for us to choose to follow him willingly out of love for him. He said to Cain “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.” Genesis 4:7 KJV. Bill Gotthard did not pull scripture out of context he encouraged the memorization and meditation of large portions, whole chapters, of scripture and daily meditation upon them. If you are looking for some magic bullet to produce perfect children you certainly won't find it in the public school or anywhere else for that matter. The only truth in this article was the fact that the Bible doesn't teach outward conformity but inward transfomity Rom 12:1-2, and that is exactly what Bill Gotthard taught as well.
“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”2 Peter 1:10 KJV
Are you going to vilify Peter for telling the brethren they should do something?
It's important to remember that, like you said, we were never promised a "magic bullet" to produce perfect children and lives. But this website is full of stories of people being told that Gothard's principles constituted the very "magic bullet" we were never promised. Do this and you will have worldly success and godly children, etc. Yes, faith without works is dead. But works without faith are just as dead, if not more, and the only "magic bullet" we can count on is the gospel--which took a backseat to Basic Principles only loosely based on Scripture. Don't take my word for it, and don't base your opinion on this one article. Look around this website and talk to other people who have been part of ATI. You may be surprised by what you find.
You go girl!
Trisha, what dictionary equates grace with power of any kind? Grace is a quality that is set against "merit" throughout Scripture. To say grace is not power is not to say that God does not exert His power in His various gracious acts. But Grace is meritless favor, it explains the basis for God's gifts, i.e. HIS character, not our works. It is not some kind of energy that makes me mightier to earn His favor!
Given the true definitions of the words, why would translators misuse the word to mean power and why is it that ONLY Bill Gothard teaches it that way? Why are you so defensive if he was just a human teacher? Can't you allow him a little error?
It is telling that YOU analogize ATI with God in you example of Cain and Abel. No one is blaming God for the faults of Gothard followers. But we do blame Gothard for false teaching that has encouraged fools to be harsh, heartless, arrogant and authoritarian or submissive to such sinful attitudes and conduct. That teaching certainly did not teach the error of legalism.
There is nothing ridiculous on this web site except the mindless defensiveness of Gothardites.
"not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" is the key to Eph. 2:8-9. Grace is not the power to follow the law. Grace is not a means to meritricious conduct. Grace is the favor we do not merit. Grace can be manifest in both weakness and strength. ("My grace is sufficient...") Gothard mangled the Scripture's use of grace to paint legalism as gracious. It is not and never can be. The law is the way to death. Resurrection is the way out. But you have to be dead to the law to live in Christ. Your defense of works as meritorious reveals your confusion. No one disputes that faith without works is dead. What we dispute is that works gains us favor. Jesus already gained all the favor in the universe on our behalf. We can add NOTHING meritorious to His finished work.
Ask yourself these questions: are you gracious to your children? Does your grace give them power? Of course not! Your grace maintains a relationship in spite of their self-centeredness.
When you start a comment by saying how ridiculous something is, you are berating. You are not being gracious in the least.
Gothard did pull scripture out of context. Have you ever read the scripture references in the Basic Seminar textbook and tried to relate them to the points in the seminars? It is impossible. Teaching a few things right does not exonerate false teaching that was at the center of the man's "ministry".
You are taking a couple of verses out of context and then proof texting them to try and fit Bill's definition of grace. It doesn't work and to look at what is meant by grace, one needs to look at all of scripture, not just one or two verses. BTW, If one wants to look at grace, all one has to do is look at the only person in the Bible that was address or titled "full or grace" or "highly favored one" depending on which translation one uses and realize that Mary did not get that title by her efforts or even power. So the standard understanding of grace as "unmerited favor" is in sharp contrast to "power".
My favorite common definition of grace is "God's Riches At Christ's Expense". Succinct, to the point, and biblically accurate. :)
um, how dare you say anything positive about anything related to BG ... I always love the "take scripture out of context" line... its almost as good as pulling the God card when deciding to go against strong counsel from your authorities
Well, it's pretty sad that you would love the "take scripture out of context" line because it's a pretty big problem with too many "teachers" not just limited to "BG". But if that is what you like, more power to you and it's probably why too many end up washing out of Christianity in general.
Yes, yes, yes! Tell it all. For those who have been in a cult, it is difficult to almost impossible for them to admit and expose what they have experienced - the loyalty is too strong, especially in a religious one. But the next generation are adults now and they are speaking out in every sphere. We attended seminars, were in ATI for 10 years, and sought to use what we could of the materials. But now everywhere we turn, we are confronted with the fall out of this ministry. May God open the eyes of the adults like us, who took their children, in good faith, down this wrong path!! May He enable these parents to forsake this religious system and restore relationships to their children, who have been damaged in the process!!! Thank you for this open door for discussion and exposure of the facts!
I agree that we as Christians should not have the burden of trying to accomplish "these 7 steps" so we can have some specific thing. God is our Father, and delights in building a relationship with us.
About the "cherry picking". It is important to be completely honest, and not leave out part of a story. We are supposed to be a clear, pure light to the unsaved. How can we do this if we are being deceptive, or think that "the end justifies the means" that we must trick people into getting saved. This is wrong. It is not our job to convict others hearts or manipulate them. The Holy Spirit is the only One who can convict of sin, and like mentioned above - guilt weighs us down and makes us feel unworthy of love, and conviction makes us feel loved in spite of our unworthiness.
I don't believe this letter should be distributed in its current form; We need to be careful not to use the same tactics we're criticizing Dr. Gothard for. The letter gives no specific examples of Dr. Gothard's failure to use specific examples or his twisting facts of specific stories, but, instead, the letter simply generalizes and encourages the reader to watch out for these instances as they occur. How is the letter's practice of planting seeds of doubt significantly different from the deceitful practices that the letter accuses Dr. Gothard of? If the letter is to have any power, it needs to be rewritten to address at least several specific examples of his deceit and fallacies.
I think the letter is actually a bit too long. LOL!
IMO, the letter has a very different purpose from the seminar and IBLP publications. The letter has to be short and very general, so that a seminar attendee will not be put off by the sheer volume of information.
The letter is designed to draw people to the website and to careful evaluation of what they hear in the seminar. To be more specific would mean handing out a book, and most people simply wouldn't be bothered to look at it. The letter is a "gateway" to pique people's interest; it's not intended or represented as a thorough exposition of the weakness in IBLP teaching.
See the article at this page for a in-depth biblical critique of Bill Gothard's teachings: http://cbcfortworth.org/#/resources/position-papers
For anyone who has been involved with ATI,it is understood what is being said in this letter,but I agree for those who haven't ,there needs to be more examples. As a parent ,I was always frustrated because of need to perform,and guilt of failure.Thanks Ryan,I have felt guilty for feeling that way and angry at the same time because it doesn't stand up to Scripture.
Sandra, our website is going to be publishing content daily doing just that...giving examples.
Scott, Veinot and Henzel's book "A Matter of Basic Principles" gives you hundreds and hundreds of specific examples of BG's deceit and fallacies. There are so many specifics with so many citations (exactly where in BG's material the deceit/fallacy is spoken with scriptures given to contrast with the Truth) that there's no way they could put it in this letter (which is already too long). The Holy Spirit reveals Truth to those seeking it and it would follow that those seeking Truth would seek out on their own the very things you are pointing out once they read and start experiencing what is said in the letter.
Incidentally, I was raised under this very destructive teaching for years as a young teen. I'm 47 now and there's no way I could show this letter (or the life-changing book) to my parents because they could never admit they were SO wrong after beating us over the head with the teachings for decades (even bringing them up still today). I'm sad for my parents' views of a punitive and legalistic God.
I am so grateful to the Veinots and Mr. Henzel for all the sacrifices they put into helping those of us bound up and hurt so deeply by these teachings.
Chris,
I am one of those parents that pushed the ATI Agenda. My oldest three daughters suffered terribly by the poor choices we made to jump on board of the program. After several years we chose to stop using the material. I still homeschooled our 8 children. In 2006, we were introduced to another ministry called HeartConnexion. I was very sceptical. However, I trusted the person that suggested going to the BreakThrough Seminar, so I went. There was a man in my training that had also experienced the ATI, and I knew Father had put him in this group for me. I experienced Grace from the Shame that I had taken on in the past few years (lots of shame about not doing it right). I asked my children to go to just the first session of BreakThrough, to see if it was something that they could benefit from (Not like the past, when I chose which path they could walk, sit or stand on.) They each honored me enough to go start the seminar. They each chose to complete all three sessions. They each received Grace from the Shame I had heaped upon them. They have encouraged their friends and some family members to experience this life giving seminar called BreakThrough.
Chris, give your parents a chance to see their errors. Most of the time, I know how much I messed up, even if no one else mentions it to me. I pray for you on your journey to Living Loved and Loving Life!
Thank you for this information, I sat under him 44 yrs ago,4 or 5 yrs. in a row, and for some reason, it didn't take with me. Now that you show me, I see that I really used my pastor's information more than Bill's - and I thank God for that!! I have been out of the loop with his organization so had no clue this was going on!!
I am downsizing, and wondered what to do with all the materials I had. Are any of them worth saving? Character Sketches? The health books? Verna Burkey? I feel like they should be destroyed, rather than tossed!
Thank you, again!
Linda: Of the materials you mentioned, I'd keep the Character Sketches if I were you. They were written by Dr. Larry Guthrie, who had insights and analogies that mirrored Scripture quite closely. If you're still planning on destroying them, I won't argue further; but I'd be interested in them, depending on their condition, and would at least pay shipping/handling costs. E-mail me at and we can make arrangements if you're interested. Thanks! --Scott
Years ago, someone gave us Character Sketches as a wedding present. My new husband and I began reading them together for devotions. I really, really enjoyed them - UNTIL I reached his discussion of King Saul's son, Jonathan. Then when I read his view of Abigail, I was so horrified that I put them away and never read them again. I've kept them all these years because they were such big, beautiful books, but I just couldn't trust the teaching of someone who changed God's Word which says Abigail was WISE and tries to make her into an evil person because she didn't stay under Nabal's authority. Her actions led to SAVING lives. David said that GOD had led her to stop him. But Gothard says she's evil??? Even though it was nearly 20 years ago now, I still remember my total shock and outrage at the complete twisting of God's Word that was done with that Bible story.
Mercy,
Yes, that's just one Bible story of many that Mr. Gothard likes to re-interpret and change to support his own teachings and principles.
Another one is the book of Job. According to Mr. G, Job's friends (not Job) were right--somehow, in some way Job HAD offended God, and God was punishing him for his actions. Even though the entire book of Job clearly says differently. It states that Job was righteous in God's eyes and he had done nothing wrong. Job's friends were the ones who were wrong, b/c they insisted that bad things only happened as a result of sin in someone's life. They had no mental category for bad things happening without there being some sort of sin to cause it. Mr. G's belief system falls into this same category--all bad things must be caused by a failure to follow God's laws or by some hidden sin in someone's life. It would be really nice if life could be lived within such a safe formula, but as Scripture clearly teaches, that is not the case (see entire Book of Job; John 9:2-3).
I grew up under these FALSE Gothard teachings and I was homeschooled through this program. When I got sick as a child my father would beg me to confess my "un-confessed" sin so that God would heal me. Talk about sick!
Bev, You are right that Job's 3 friends were wrong & Job was blameless. However, Elihu the younger man pointed Job to reconsider his attitude toward God. Though Job did not do anything to deserve the suffering, he was wrong to set himself up to question the purposes of God (cf. the problem with questioning God in Rom 9:14-21). Job's questioning is obvious in his outbursts, in Elihu's rebuke, God's humbling encounter with Job, and the suffering man's response.
That might be partially true (I agree that Elihu did a better job of 'straightening Job out' than the others, providing some helpful perspective), but still, God said that 'Job has SPOKEN of me what is right." An interesting conclusion. Is it possible that we can still honor God with our questions and struggles?
IIRC it is in the Character Sketches that Tamar and Dinah are found to be partially at fault for being raped.
Linda,
Bill did not write the Character Sketches and there are many people that have truly done great work for God in many lectures, etc that contributed to this ministry. Ray Comfort for example spoke many times. Please don't forget Jesus' word in Matthew 23:3, "So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." In the case of Bill Gothard, this doesn't 100% apply of course but there is a percentage of material that he did not write so don't throw away your Bible, Character Sketches, and other material that is still valid. I taught a series on 49 verses I saw on one of his web sites. Those verses aGod's Word. My series can be viewed at joespair.com and I assure you understanding these verses will change your life. Bill should be in jail but also those who knew and allowed him to continue should be brought to accountability. As a Children's Pastor and Father of Five, I am shocked that this man became a Judas somewhere along the way. Finally, I agree with your anger and I also wanted to just burn everything from him but believed the Lord showed me that his failure does not make the hard work from some of the men and women that worked there evil. Remember, the 11 disciples were also shocked about Judas, but those 11 were Godly men.
Here is an example of why to throw away the Character Sketches:
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/04/character-sketches-or-sketchy-characters-dinah-and-tamar/
Hi! I read through this letter. I applaud you for placing Gothard's definition of grace in the context of Ephesians 2:-8. What an illustration of the fact the word means "unmerited favor," not "God giving us the desire and power to do His will."
I agree with Scott that more examples of eisegesis, or Scripture twisting would be good - and if you are handing this letter out at Basic Seminars, I think it would be good to give examples of Scripture twisting done at that particular seminar. But maybe not. Perhaps it would be good to show, with many examples, the pervasive nature of Scripture twisting which permeates all of IBLP - from the Character Sketches (which teach Abigail was a bad woman), to ATI, to the Advanced Seminar, and to many booklets one can purchase through IBLP.
What comes to mind right now are many examples. The circumcision booklet, where Gothard says "it is a total insult" to be called uncircumcised in Scripture. Not true. Galatians says Titus was not compelled to be circumcised. Paul also taught Abraham was justified before he was circumcised so he could be the father of both the circumcised and the uncircumcised. No hint of an insult there - just joy and awe that the uncircumcised could be saved, and that the uncircumcised didn't have to be, and shouldn't be circumcised in order to be saved (Acts 15). But at the end of Gothard's circumcision book, the conclusion is the only moral choice parents can make for their sons, and there is even a suggested ceremony with a certificate page for this "Christian" ceremony.
Anyway - there are many examples you could illustrate the problem with. The definition of grace is one of the biggest problems, and the push to get people to obey cherry-picked aspects of the Mosaic law is another, and yet another is the teaching on authority, to the point you have to distrust your own reasoning (man's reasoning) and let your authority be God's instrument for complete guidance in your life.
And I remember people from ATI who worked at the TCs telling me Gothard informally teaching a lot of weird things - such as girls who ride horses are rebellious, and girls should not ride horses. I'm not kidding you. I've heard this from more than one person, too, and from a person I've met in real life. I believe their testimonies, but there is plenty of published material to work from.
It's a very effective system which puts people back under (some of) the Law, and teaches them they must work, work, work on account of the meaning of grace, and makes young people and wives and others under authority to not trust their God-given abilities to think. And makes them feel creepy about all kinds of things that should be things God has given to enjoy - such as horses, for crying out loud! So many examples, so little time . . .
Gothard publicly taught that men with long hair should cut their hair or people might think they were homesexual
So true, Lynn. Paul would not let Titus be circumcised. On this one fact Gothard's entire teaching about circumcision is undone.
Excellent points. One of the most insidious things about the ATIA is the subtle REDEFINING of words, just enough to not be obvious, but to totally change the trajectory of a concept.
I don't think the letter is being like Gothard at all. The Bible warns against false prophets and that's the letters intentions. If I warned someone about a potential scam would that make me like the scammer?
I read Gothard believes there would have been no flood if the people had practiced courting and Cabbage Patch dolls are wrong. I wonder how I avoided hearing of him growing up in the Bible belt.
Interesting, isn't it, that redefining words is also a characteristic of abusive ppl? It's a way of keeping you controlled. Works especially well if you never do manage to figure out exactly what they're talking about.p
Isn't that the truth... I've seen definitions on their community billboards that make my head twitch. You know, I think they have the young people coming up with alot of this stuff...the ones that were homeschooled with only ATI curriculum.Its very creepy. I remember the first time we thought that something wasn't kosher with the ATI- a family we met thought that they had some teaching and information that would help with a situation we were facing. BUT- they had to "clear it with headquarters" before they could talk to us... I thought that was very odd and not like anything I had ever encountered when talking with any other Christians.
The second red flag went up when one of our kids was taught that Moses' mom obeyed Pharoah by putting her baby boy in the river. (I guess it was a minor detail that he had a little waterproof basket to ride in). What I got out of that, besides the obvious twisting of scripture, was that to the ATI, the external is what is most important. It didn't matter that obviously, Moses' mom DID NOT obey the pharoah in her heart. They seized on a mom's plan to dis the authority and save her baby and twisted it into a weird phony example of submission. Is that how they look at obedience to Christ? That we make sure to follow the letter of the law on the outside but not in our hearts? That sounds like the Pharisees!
Hi Laura
Your comment reminds me of an encounter with a home-schooling group where several families were doing the ATI program, and they presented a musical number for the gathering. My family later asked for either a copy of the music or the source of the song, and we were informed that it was composed specifically for ATI family use and they were not allowed to distribute it beyond their own group. We were surprised that something composed "for the glory of God" could not be freely shared with known Christians outside the "initiated".
I think the letter is fine, especially if it's given out on the first night. Lots of questions to go back with the next day. =)
Critical thinking is essential when examining the teachings of anyone claiming to speak for God - especially if they have the "only I am right" approach.
I could never understand how my parents, with their solid, 4-year Bible college background and a lifetime commitment to clear, exegetical teaching of the word and salvation and christian living being of, by, and through Grace somehow overlooked the abuse of scripture by this man who claims so much respect for it. Mind boggling.
My conclusion was that they received advice that helped their own marriage relationship and spiritual growth. How they continued to approve of and justify Gothard, instead of looking to other ministries w/similar teachings and more of a respect for God's Word is beyond me.
Thank God, over the years, they have gradually distanced themselves from the Basic Seminar. =)
"My conclusion was that they received advice that helped their own marriage relationship and spiritual growth."
This is very likely what happened. I was introduced to Bill Gothard through the Rebuilders Guide -- which was given to me by my divorce lawyer! I had spent months searching for books and counsel that would give me hope that my marriage could be saved after my husband left me. Most books I found and most counsel I received was in the realm of "moving on". The Rebuilders Guide was the first that gave me hope for an actual restoration. Was it formulaic? Yes. But God used it to touch my heart, humble me, open my eyes to my own failures -- all of which led to the restoration of my marriage after 3 years of divorce.
A couple of years after our remarriage, my husband began his long journey of very slow spiritual growth while at a Basic Seminar. Twenty-five plus years later he has become a man who loves God and rises very early every morning for deep Bible study & prayer.
As we raised our children we did believe and use some of the principles we learned at the Basic Seminar. And it served our family well. We were never "Gothardites" in the least bit, but I have over the years defended Bill Gothard ("it's not him and his ministry...some of his teaching is wrong, but most of it is good...it's just that so many people go overboard"...etc.). Now, as I'm reading these articles and testimonies, I'm realizing that the truth is that it's not a case of "some of his teaching is wrong but most of it is good", but rather the exact opposite: some of it is good but most of it is wrong.
I'm grateful that God used the Rebuilders Guide to restore our marriage. I'm grateful that God used other things from the seminar materials in our lives as well. But I'm also grateful that for the last 20+ years we have been in good solid Biblical churches and that God kept us from delving very deeply into IBLP, and kept us completely from using ATI in our homeschooling.
So many of the articles I've been reading here are heartbreaking. I am praying for healing for those families that I know of who have lived for so many years with the deep deception -- especially the family of the young man through whom I learned about this website.
Wow, keep doing what you are doing. How I WISH you had been around when my eyes began to be opened in regard to this organization. It was so difficult because all the ATI christian friends we thought we had dumped us. We were alone and struggling, because we did not reenroll in ATI that year. We had not intended to "stay out" of ATI permanently. It was just for that year. "FORTUNATELY" the behavior of these people opened our eyes to reveal what this organization was really all about. CONTROL. However, the destruction and hurt done to my children and their lives is very painful for me to bear. I remember attending a seminar and then talking to my 10 year old daughter to "take away" her cabbage patch doll she had received 1 month earlier for her birthday! (one of the minor screwed up things we did at Gothard's guidance).We just wanted to protect our daughter and have what was best for her. Gothard uses "fear propaganda" to manipulate his followers. Especially parents like ourselves who did not have a christian upbringing to fall back upon are particularly vulnerable.
However, in regard to the flyer above, as an artist, I personally would recommend something short, sweet, and eye-catching, as well as professional looking that then directs to the web-site if they want more. Too wordy and the average reader doesn't stay around to read it. Eye-catching and it immediately creates interest.The more professional looking the more credibility etc. This is a spiritual battle and the enemy (Gothard) seeks to deceive God's chosen.
I agree with Beth. This letter is too long. People who are going to sit through a week of seminars, without checking scripture references, aren't going to read something this long. Please consider shortening!
Growing up in the program, my biggest problem was that Mr.Gothard told the Dad's to win their daughters hearts. That was all I wanted and yearned for!! My dad did it in his own way but not the way Mr. Gothard portrayed it was supposed to happen. I was so hurt over that. Then years later in another Christian ministry where homeschoolers were writing in to share their struggles growing up, it was published that they addressed it to Mr. Gothard and he said, "Looking back I should have told them that God should be having their hearts"!!! After all this time of wanting that, and he changes his story!!! That is just one example. But thank you for trying to help others before they get involved.
Excellent letter. It's not fun or easy to call out false teachers for what they are, but it's something believers have to do. The Bible tells us to discern truth and expose false doctrine for what it is, and sometimes that means calling people by name.
One of the saddest results of IBLP indoctrination that I have experienced in more recent years is that of now-adult ATI children who live present-day as they were modeled to by Mr. Gothard (whether or not they still advocate the teachings of IBLP). These are individuals who now themselves take Scripture out of context to defend their life choices, rather than believing God for what He says and for Who He says He is. They live according to their own truth, are quick to offer anecdotes to justify their choices, and they have mastered the art of manipulation. They are living as they were conditioned to live. They are not open to receiving love, counsel, or truth from others, because *they* have a unique channel to God that trumps God's word, the church, and loving friends.
Good point. I had a former pastor who did not get adequate training to correctly interpret the Word of Truth because of ATI. The church he planted was stunted, isolated, & improperly run because the pastor spent years as an adult student in ATI rather than getting a solid theological and exegetical education. Fortunately, my parents were more dedicated to Scripture than to a man-centered approach to church and we left. Later, we dropped out of ATI because we saw that it was not grounding us in correct biblical doctrine.
I grew up in a home where we spent a lot of our "family worship" times reading Character Sketches. For a while there, we went every summer to the IBLP conferences. I think my parents even went to the "Advanced" seminar too.
I remember VIVIDLY the moment I recognized that what was going on was not right.
My father was in disagreement with me about something, I don't even recall what, and the words that came at me were "What does BILL GOTHARD say about this sort of thing?!"
Not "What does the Bible say?"
Not "What does scripture teach us?"
BILL GOTHARD.
I am so thankful that by the grace of God I was given this moment of clarity. It wasn't my superior knowledge or fantastic insight, it was a gift. Many of the children who grew up under this false teaching are still waiting for that moment of grace, I pray it comes to them soon.
I am now a wife and mother, fighting my own struggles to bring up my children well, and with GRACE at the heart of our family, not only outward conforming with external expectations. There are no IBLP materials here.
Wow! My heart is saddened by the false beliefs about one of God's children and tools for teaching us His Holy Word. Absolutely NONE of the above has been our experience with IBLP ATI. God uses authority to protect His children. If you don't understand why something was said search it out (re: cabbage patch???). Don't just believe all you hear or thought you heard. ATI has taught for many years that parenting out of fear leads to bad consequences. They teach relationship with your family rather than authoritarianism. They teach you from the Bible to honor and respect one another. Love each other. ATI teaches us to DELIGHT in God and love Him with all our heart...as Scripture says. They teach that we can do all things through Christ Who strengthens us and that doing things in our own power and will leads to wrong choices and bad consequences. The people who are a part of the ATI program are not perfect. Any imperfect, unbiblical responses from a person or family in ATI are from imperfect people, as are people outside ATI. Many wear a mask to cover their true way of life and many live in fear of being seen as a failure. ATI teaches that we are to take off the mask and be who God is growing us to be with His power not our own and NOT ATI's. We are not to compare ourselves with others (even those who appear perfect). God's Word is the standard not ATI. Most importantly, ATI teaches us to study God's Word and be Bereans. They teach us HOW to study the Bible by going back to the original language of Scripture and studying it for ourselves. They teach us to taste and see that the Lord is good. This general attitude that ATI is evil is unfounded. God is blessing those whom you falsely accuse and curse. "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad for great is your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Don't blame ATI /IBLP for the implementation errors of fathers and mothers. Don't idolize the tool by being bitter. Your hope and expectations are from God, not His people. ATI's teachings are of God's Word. Study it! Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you. Love God and worship Him!
Traci - I am shocked by your response to this deeply misled cult and their teachings. Bill Gothard may have been created in God's image, but who are we to determine his salvation? And why are Bill Gothard's man-made tools the basket you have based your beliefs on? Those on this site have NOT believed all they were taught by IBLP, and we have not subscribed to blind authoritarian command either. We have researched the Bible, compared a man's interpretations to the Word of God, and determined that Bill Gothard and his organization are found lacking. I am under God's authority, and none other. I am a single, educated, successful woman. My father has determined that I am mature enough as an adult to be under my OWN authority, and I have chosen to place myself under the Lord. God protects me from those who seek to control and command their children and others while hiding behind the shroud of authority. I worship God and God only. I praise Him, acknowledge Him and adore Him, despite the men who seek to step between myself and the Lord by claiming "authority".
This site is not here to perpetuate the bitterness, anger and abuse that Bill Gothard and ATI introduced to so many lives. Recovering Grace is here so that young men and women can recover from the gross lack of love and grace the ATI implemented in their lives growing up. Bill Gothard is a man, and he failed. We are human, and that is expected - humans fail. Please realize that your idolization of a human toolbox created to dissect God's word is exactly that - a human toolbox. Go to God's Word without the strongholds of ATI in your heart. Interpret God's love for yourself, without man-made guidelines. I hope you can see through the smoke and mirrors of ATI for yourself and recognize that we are saved not through works, but through faith and God's grace. There is not set of rules we must follow, for God is love. Please do go to the Bible yourself, before you give anymore of your life to teachings and man-made religion.
Sounds like a lot of bitter folk who are rebelling against parents later in life. Need to be busy making disciples out of these so called abused people rather thank wasting time criticizing this Gothard fellow and the folk that still seem to believe he is teaching some truth. Seems Satan is increasing the ways one so called Christian and criticize and blame another Christian, same as our politician today...seem unwilling to assume any personal responsibiity. My parent we certainly not perfect but they were my parents appearently because God wanted them to be my parents. Thank God I love them and dont hold them responsible for any failures in my life. May all you ex gothardites see that a loving God was in control in spite of all your disgruntlements. It might help for open letter to mom author to let her mom know she loves her regardless of moms failings, that is if your a true disciple of Jesus
Yes, Jerry, I "rebelled" against my parents later in life. In my late 20s, long after I should have been making my own decisions and living my own life, I "ran away" from home, as it was the only way I could get away from the control. We are telling stories of abuse, which, I believe, far exceeds mere "disgruntledness". Seriously, gimme a break. And Fwiw, my parents and I now have a good relationship, but it took several years of some serious boundary setting and boundary defining in order to get there.
Hannah, just curious, have you had to set boundries with God also? Or do you hold to the idea that freedom is freedom from any control at all, is the fullness of Holy Spirit actually giving him control of our lives, and just what earthly authority does he us to accomplish that if any?
Jerry, there is an excellent book I would reccomend you get and read. It is called simply, "Boundaries". It explains some of what I'm talking about, that abuse happens when one or more persons in a relationship do not respect proper boundaries, and one person thinks that it is ok to mistreat the other person.
Your question is interesting. I would say I did have a very hard time learning to trust God again, and I believe that is a common struggle when one has been abused by their parents (who are, after all, a child's first concept of "God"). It took a long time for me to relearn God, and how vastly different He was from my understanding of Him when I was younger. Interesting thing, though, God does respect boundaries. He doesn't push Himself on anyone who doesn't want Him. Figuring that out, made it a lot easier to return to Him Who truly is the Lover of my soul.
Jerry, I am late in the game but am shocked at the words I've seen spouted from your keyboard.
"May all you ex gothardites see that a loving God was in control in spite of all your disgruntlements. It might help for open letter to mom author to let her mom know she loves her regardless of moms failings, that is if your a true disciple of Jesus."
So, are you saying that all you see are disgruntlements. It is clear to me that you had preconceived notions before reading your first article on RecoveringGrace. And that this narrow perspective has led you to misinterpret what you are reading. Please open your mind and go back through and re-read things from the perspecive of an individula building their relationship with God from square one. If you believe that grace is obtained through a cycle of works. And if you believe that parents are to lord over their children until marriage. And if you believe that the old jewish culture of betrothal and marriage is God's command for us today. And if you believe that non-hymn music is evil (I gathered that you do as I skimmed your comments tonight.) And if you beleive that it is okay to beat your children with a "rod" as long as it's becuase you are pretty sure they are operating out of a rebellious heart. If you do believe these things, then thsi site may not be the place for you. Your words will only wound. Please, honor this... this is a place for healing and not wounding.
As for the open letter to his mother... (Yes, it was written by her *son*.) Why would you assume that he did not try to speak with her? The Gothard mentality is that the parent is right whether they are truly right or not. Therefore conversations of this kind are rarely successful. I find it shameful that you attacked the author's sincere pain and desire to follow Jesus in spite of the wounds.
Additionally, it would be a theologically inaccurate to think that the work of the Holy Spirit in a life requires a human authority to accomplish those purposes. There is only one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ.
Jerry, Being savagely beaten (for offenses I can't even remember now) and lied to, sometimes being forced to go without meals (and in some households, molested) must not be abuse in your book. And if it were, that's nothing to be bitter about, right? pshaw, we're just over reacting, right?
I find your unwillingness to accept the truth insulting, but I am not bitter, no, God's grace is too powerful in my life to be bitter, but it would be wrong to forget this happened, and pretend it couldn't happen to anyone else.
btw, just a thought, please pick a different word besides 'bitter' for your fallback 'I'm going to shut my ears to the cry of the poor' responses.
Pardon my strong words if they offend you. Nothing makes me more angry (righteous anger) than to see people who call themselves Christians refuse to protect the innocent and the weak.
Traci, I'm not surprised that you threw the "bitter" word into your response. Those of us who spent time on staff at IBLP, working at the training centers, etc. know it well, we were taught that anyone who didn't agree with what Dr. Gothard taught or the 7 non-optional principals, or the standards disagreed simply because they were bitter (or rebellious, take your pick). Please take the time to really understand someone's pain before you simply dismiss it as his curriculum teaches you to do.
Traci, once you compare most of Gothard's teachings to what the Bible really says, you'll be able to take that saddened heart of yours, flip it upside down, and it'll be smiling. Anyone who stands on their head while frowning actually smiles.
Take verses that he uses, then go read the surrounding chapter or book. Read the Bible as a whole unit, toss in some common sense, remove the "case studies" from your learned logic, and then come to your own conclusions.
I challenge you to find contradictions.
You can do it.
Traci:
I am happy to hear that you have not gone very deeply into ATI/IBLP. After having been in ATI for 12 years, served for over four years in a leadership role with the organization and working very heavily with senior IBLP leadership, I know that your response is from someone on the fringes.
I have to ask a few questions, not in anger or as an argument, but as someone who understands Gothard's teachings inside and out.
1. You mention Gothard teaches "...relationship with your family rather than authoritarianism". How do you see this with the "umbrella of protection" or pulling young people away from their family to serve in training centers and telling them they need to hold a higher standard to their families (actual sessions with Gothard at a TC) or how when you serve with Gothard you cannot be seen talking sister to brother in case it "causes others to stumble and think you are flirting"? I could go on and on but these are a FEW specific examples...
2. You mention "They teach you from the Bible to honor and respect one another". Do you see a difference between respect/honor and extreme fear that your actions will cause you to sin and not be good enough? Perhaps this will give some perspective (written by a young woman who followed Gothard's teachings)....
http://xatigirl.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/eye-traps-anyone/
3. You mention, "They teach us HOW to study the Bible by going back to the original language of Scripture and studying it for ourselves". I am assuming you have attended a Gothard seminar... Did you ever get the chance to study a scripture passage, or was some verse cherry picked and you were told one of the words meant something counter-intuitive in greek and then you were given a wildly entertaining story that supported the new idea - a story that included animals or fruit?
4 You seem to believe that, "Don't blame ATI /IBLP for the implementation errors of fathers and mothers. Don't idolize the tool by being bitter". Have things been taken to extremes? YES. I have seen it. But who takes it there? The parents? Hopefully not all of them. Who encourages it? Here in one example...In the Basic Care Newsletter produced by IBLP, it was actually reported that in two situations the existence of Cabbage Patch and Troll dolls in the home effectively prevented the mothers from giving birth. Once the offending toys were removed from the homes, the women were able to successfully give birth. The "cleansing of the home from evil influences," was credited to the attending midwives committed to Gothard's teaching. - Who should we blame for this wierdness?
You mentioned, "Don't blame ATI /IBLP for the implementation errors of fathers and mothers". In an IBLP publication called "Secrets to Self-Acceptance", Gothard teaches that, "Every child has special characteristics, tendencies, and needs which are directly related to his or her birth order.... By accepting my birth order, I am able to bring my tendencies under the control of the Holy Spirit, thus avoiding the destructive rivalry and bitterness which often occurs among family members". Not satisfied with merely attributing the cause of various problems of life to one's birth order , Gothard even (blasphemously) applies the birth order concept to the life of Christ; i.e., Gothard teaches that some of Christ's character traits are indicative of His being a first-born. What Gothard has done is to read into Scripture an unproven idea in the same way Minirth, Meier and other psychological integrationists "prove" that the Freudian ego-defense mechanisms are found in the Bible. - This is not an "implementation error by a parent" but a publication written by Gothard...
None of the postings on this site are bitter. No one is persecuting Gothard. Please do not try to hide behind excuses.
Please pay attention to people who know IBLP and ATI better than anyone else - having served in the inner circle.
Thank you for this post, Brandon. I found it very helpful.
Tracie..i have read most of the messages in here and i honestly have not seen one poster curse ATI nor falsely accuse. Can you give an example of a false allegation? I have read many a time where Jesus warned in the last day's there will be a great deception where even the very elect if possible will be decieved. We christian's need to take this warning seriously. The one way i can see this deception occurring is satan using God's word in such a manner that even mature christians will hear it and think it from God yet in their spirit they will know something is wrong. This is where we christian's with the gift of discernment must step forward and warn other's. I have heard so many times christians stating that they take what is good of gothard's teaching and toss the rest out. But Jesus warned us a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. It doesn't take much. Dear..Bill Gothard's defination of grace and faith should send warning bell's in every christian's heart. Faith is defined by Gothard as 'visualizing what God intend's to to do. Faith is not visualization in any sense. Faith is trust in God&His word. Visualization is an occultic techique used in sorcery and witchcraft.Gothard teaches that 'unmerited favor is a faulty defination of grace. He redefines grace as something to earn. Basically he teaches one get's grace to keep the law in order to earn more grace in order to keep from sin. The cyle goes on and on. It's not the law..it's not by works do we grow in grace. Not by complying with antisocietal rules,regulation's and principles complied to earn favor with God. Those who follow gothard fail to recognise God as a loving father and instead are in bondage to performance. Gothard's teaching on grace and faith is tragic and show's he has no grasp on the deep thing's of God. It is only by grace are we saved through faith,not of ourselves.it is a gift of God are we set free to follow Him. It is grace that saves, keep's,and conforms to His image.
That being said..does anyone know if Bill Gothard is with the new world order? I know he is eceumentical and i know this movement is bringing together a new world order. Gothard's use of step's and the 7 non optional principles smacks of new age: 7 creative powers of the Godhead
7 great ages of the earth
7 races of mankind
7 schools of mystery religions. In theosphy there are 7 step process of human evolution in which race evolves from lower to a higher form of life. Also in one of his logo's is an eagle in which in sublimal form is the number 7. I find it troublesome someone would resort to sublimal imaging in their logo.
One more thing please.Gothard teaches husband's should use their wives menstral periods as a reminder of the shed blood of Christ and His suffering. Jesus gave us the Lord's supper to remember His broken body and His shed blood. It is more than sufficient and a blessing to take the Lord's supper.To compare the precious shed blood of the Son Of God to a women having her menses is a big hmmm.Because Gothard's teaching is keeping many aspect's of the judeo law's, is he setting up a belief system to go back to animal sacrifices? I have read of a few key 'preacher's who are in the dominion movement state of such a thing.
"ATI has taught for many years that parenting out of fear leads to bad consequences."
Yes I literally LMAO when I read that!
Even though it really isn't funny, its intensely sad that anyone could be so blind. And I am not judging, for we have all been there, and been that blind.
But really, that statement is just far too classic.
Traci,
Are you sure you're talking about ATI? All of those wonderful things you mentioned weren't my experience! (those things may have been talked about, but they were NOT lived out. EVER. Talk is cheap.) I am glad that you had such a marvelous experience, count yourself blessed that you did not suffer what we suffered.
Traci have you heard of the "straw man fallacy"? Allow me to attempt an explanation.
You are misrepresenting the positions put forth in this article and many articles throughout this website. The evidence is in your accusation of those on this website being "bitter."
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Food for thought.
Traci, the viewpoint shared on this website is not false accusations. It is personal experience. The spiritual abuse in the program came from the top down, it was not just "a few bad parents". I know this through my personal experience working closely with the ministry in the training centers, I saw the abuse numerous times. My own family has endured abuse at the hands of Bill Gothard and his staff. My brother spent FOUR HOURS trapped in Mr. Gothard's office, enduring all manner of verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse, before he was sent home in disgrace from his position at Headquarters. His offense? Refusing to be an informant on his friends and coworkers. Now, THAT, is a seriously messed up system that relies so strongly on spies and informants and punishes severely if they cannot obtain your "cooperation". I am not making this stuff up. It is seriously messed up, and my advice is to RUN while you still can. Again, I speak with the authority of experience. Not just one experience, but numerous observations and experience over a period of years in the program.
Ok, I must correct a couple of the details here... It was not my brother, but my brother's friend who was to be sent home if he did not provide information on his friends/coworkers, or persuade them to turn themselves in (the incident with the friend and my brother was interelated and happened at the same time). My brother was actually sent home for refusing to agree with Bill Gothard, while in that four-hour private "meeting", that all rock music is, unequivocally and across the board, sin. Equally mind-controlling and rediculous, but I wanted to correct the error, there.
So are you saying "some" rock music is good for edifying us. Give me an example of some.
Oh, totally Jerry! I can name numerous songs that God has used to minister to me, over the years! But that really was not the point of my comment. My point was an exposure of the spiritual abuse and control that we are quibbling over things so minor, and that we must control a person's innermost beliefs and thoughts, and punish them severely if they won't spy for us. This is a messed-up system, for sure!!
I'm super edified by the song "The Love Shack".
Darcy, what do you mean by being super edified by "Love Shack"
Do you mean it draws you closer to God?
I have actually thought of this topic in great detail. Can you answer a few questions for me?
For one, is it the "back beat" that is "evil?" Because I have been known to play the back beat on the piano and no one seemed to care or notice. Actually, if you could try something for me, sing "Jesus loves me" but clap with each syllable. Such as while you say, Je - sus - loves - me. Then try singing it again and clapping directly after each syllable. Are you sinning by doing that?
Or is it the actual drums? If I play a percussion instrument to any song is that what is evil? Or is it a percussion instrument on the back beat?
See the problem? There is no clear line. What exactly is "rock music?" Is it simply anything that ATI doesn't approve of? I can sing a Satanic song to the tune of Amazing Grace and trust me, it would not be a good idea! And what about all the people worshiping Satan? What about the songs they use that don't have any beat at all? What about the ones in minor keys that sound more like Gregorian chants? Shouldn't the "minor" (sad sounding) keys be banned as well?
What I finally realized was that when David came dancing in with the Ark of the Lord (probably to some "dancey" music with a beat such as in the Psalms where he reminds us to "Praise God with the timbrel (percussion) and the dance." was that when my heart's desire is to worship God, it doesn't matter what the music is!!! What matters is, "What is my heart saying to God!!!!" And if the music gets to my foot before it gets to my heart... well then I will worship God with my foot and let my heart follow! That is what He made my foot for and all of me for, to worship Him!!!
One of the absolute best examples of the pharaseical legalism, and out right inventions of IBLP, is how it treats rock music. There is literally no biblical basis for it. And I have read the Bible through, many times. I have seen ALL the material IBLP puts out on the issue. Their "scriptural backing" for making a sin of music, is astonishing thin to non-existent.
Try it. Don't cheat and look at ANY materials by BG or any other human. Go to the Bible, and the Bible only, and show me how it regulates music.
Amen, Hannah.
I was only a baby Christian when I was introduced to IBLP. First was the Anger seminar. I remember thinking, "Wow, this is so easy! All I do is follow these steps, and soon, I'll be just like Jesus!" What a sad first impression. Little did I realize that by believing that following steps--behaving a certain way--would make me Christlike, I was in essence deleting the Holy Spirit from the equation. I basically bought into the lie that the Holy Spirit can be MADE to help us if we just MAKE ourselves follow a prescribed pattern. Over the years, as I sat under preachers who had never heard of BG, and in Bible college classes, and in personal times of devotion, I began to see more and more that having little steps-to-perfection (with the rules and the principles and whatnot laid out practically in a graph) was basically turning your brain down and deleting the need to take everything to the Lord in prayer. After all, why would you need to listen to the Spirit about a piece of music, and ask Him his opinion, if you already knew that according to Gothard's definition it was "bad" or "good." Music was actually the big tip-off for me that something was wrong. I heard a scary, depressing piece of classical music being played in the kitchen of a training center, and when I told the person playing it that it bothered me, he said, "This music passes." So, since it "passed" BG's standards, it didn't matter if it was dark and scary-sounding. But a joyful song sung by a contemporary artist like Fernando Ortega? Well, that was the Devil's music because it was contemporary. Case closed. No room for the Holy Spirit at all.
I worked at IBLP headquarters in Chicago for seven months. While there were some amazing people I met, the legalism and the "personal" standards that were pressed upon us were staggering. I was asked by Bill Gothard himself to come serve up there...I was thrilled that he would offer that! As soon as I got there, I asked if there were rules so I could follow them. I hadn't really grown up in an ATI family, I guess we were pretty sacrilegious because we went to movies etc. ;) They said there were no rules, just live according to scripture. The next day, a couple guys asked me a question, I answered them and struck up a friendly conversation. Not an hour later I was cornered by a girl and she proceeded to tell me how inappropriate I was being. I tried to explain to her that I had no idea I was doing anything wrong. Growing up with a family of brothers I had grown comfortable with talking to "brothers" in Christ. She then told me that I was just using that as an excuse to talk to the opposite sex. I could tell story after story of incidents like this. This 7 months of my life was a damaging time, and it has taken me 4 years to start to build back up my self esteem. Grace and truth go hand in hand. I'm in no way bitter about that time, for I grew a lot. But, it still hurts to think of all those memories.
[...] Grace is geared to the first generation of ATI students who are now adults. According to their An Open Letter from Bill Gothard’s First Generation to Basic Seminar Attendees: The latest statistics provided by an anonymous IBLP staff member indicates that less than 1% of [...]
Thanks for the thought and love that you put into this letter. It is very well written, and as you said challenges people to think about who they are following. As you know, it seems that too often people are looking for a fix and not as interested in thinking for themselves, in dependance on Christ. But I know that God can prick their hearts, and this is what we pray for!
Quote from article. "In addition to this staggering fact, many children raised within the program have fallen away from the Christian faith entirely. There have even been at least three murders committed by students raised in faithful ATI families. How can this be happening?"
Name one Christian denomination or para church organization including your own here that this is not a fact of our day. We are born sinners after all and enemies of God from birth, true believers are not in the majority nor will be until Jesus return. Seems like a lot of bitterness here. David a man after God's own heart was a murder, as was Moses and other heroes of the faith. The last days will see a falling away by many that were christians by name only not true converts. But your minds are made up, if your parents failed you, you must ultimately blame blame God that is if you believe he is ultimately in control. Didnt Joseph say his brothers (your parents,Gothard or whoever else you hold responsibe for your misery)meant it for evil but Holy God meant it for good.
Jerry, I certainly do believe that God can take something evil and, by the transforming power of His grace, use it to accomplish something good. He certainly has done that in my life! However, that does not change the fact that evil is evil. The fact that God makes good happen in spite of evil does not validate the evil.
I do love my parents. I am very thankful for the many, many good things they have done. And they know that. But that doesn't mean that I should accept everything they did as right and imitate it, nor would they want that. They want me to grow beyond where they were able to. They started out with some very deep wounds. They did their absolute best to heal their own wounds and give me a life without the scars they had to bear. However, no one is perfect (I don't expect them to be), and so I did wind up with some wounds of my own. I honor my parents by choosing to find healing for my own wounds.
Sometimes, in order to heal a wound, infection has to be drained out first. Evil actions, unhealthy relationships, false thinking - all need to be brought out into the light in order to be rejected and/or changed. The truth can be painful, but when faced, is healing. I would certainly hope that my children would do the same thing as they grow up - keep the good and throw away the bad and seek God's healing and truth - even if it proves me wrong sometimes.
My parents honestly did not know some of the things Mr. G was teaching the apprenticeship students. They would have strongly disagreed with some things had they known. They are shocked at some of the things I came to believe under his teaching.
Are you really saying that we should continue to allow others to do evil to us so that God can bring good out of it? That we should continue to believe lies so that God can shine His truth on them? Once we realize something is wrong, are we not responsible before God to do what we can to make it right? Especially if others are being hurt by it?
I can't speak for everyone here, of course, but in general I don't think that most of us blame our parents for getting sucked in by false teachings --- Bill Gothard's or anyone else's. I think most of us would acknowledge that our parents, being human, made mistakes.
For some of us, however, the problems with our parents went further than just oppressive belief systems. Legally-actionable abuse was perpetrated on these children. I cannot blame them for wanting to step back from such relationships. And I cannot blame them if they also step back from the God in whose name these horrors were done to them.
MY goal in working with Recovering Grace is two-fold: to help restore faith to those whose faith was damaged by abuse, and to prevent future abuse by warning parents of the dangers that IBLP and ATI presents.
Bill Gothard's teachings, especially those on authority, make it very easy for an abusive person to justify their abusive behaviour, while simultaneously making it nearly impossible for victims to challenge or escape the abuse.
You call us "bitter" and imply that we are not true Christians. Was Jesus bitter when he attacked the religious authorities of His day for burdening people with rules they could not keep? Was He behaving sinfully when He overturned tables and used a knotted whip to drive the cheating moneychangers out of God's Temple? Was the Apostle Paul not a true Christian when he recounted all of the things that had been done to him by the civil and religious authorities of his day? I think not.
Scripture enjoins us to expose and reject false teachers. If those false teachers used our parents to gain access to us, then our expsoure and rejection must reveal those tactics. This is not to blame our parents, who are victims as much as we are, but to show others the means by which this particular false teacher, with his "new approach to life" and his "guarantees of success," can infiltrate the homes of innocent seekers and destroy the very lives that they are seeking to safeguard.
Wendy, I obviously did not express myself accurately if you got the idea I refered to anyone here as not a true believer, that was not my intent and say now, I cannot judge what individual is or is not a true believer, and if I thought someone might not be a true believer I certainly do nothave the ritght to express that in a forum like this. And if I acted in a condescending way toward that individual it would not be love. One of the problems I have with these type of sites is there is no personal contact or relationship, and without looking face to face there can be many misunderstandings and judgements made and I am as guilty of that as anyone. Most of all I understand the pain that comes from relationships that are not all we want them to be. Forgive me for not being clear and giving room for misunderstanding of my comments. But then again I tend to believe this type of forum lends itself to that. I am thankful to our Holy Loving Father in Heaven He is healing each of you as only He can and pray He will continue to show me mercy as I fall far short of His glory everyday, and am thankful that GRACE wins the day.
Jerry, I do not blame God for the mistakes of men, although I can't fault some that do.
Jerry...There's an enormous difference in God being personally responsible for spiritual abuse (or any other form of abuse) and God's ability to take something abusive and ugly and make something good out of it. I tend to think this site is indicative of the latter.
"Are you really saying that we should continue to allow others to do evil to us so that God can bring good out of it? That we should continue to believe lies so that God can shine His truth on them?"
Please say NO, Jerry. =)
We are all born sinners, yes, but the question is this:
how many of US stand up and claim to speak for God in front of thousands upon thousands, claiming to have "God's answers for a successful life" - while teaching our own opinion?
There is a HUGE difference between Gothard and King David, Moses, etc. God himself said he chose those imperfect men to reveal his will and lead his people.
As far as I know, God himself has not made any statements concerning Bill Gothard (that didn't come from Bill's own mouth.) =)
Will, you totally missed my point, I was not camparing or putting gothard in a class with Moses David etc, my point was concerning using the fact that three exgothardites had commited murder in itself does not prove gothard or his teaching is evil. He and his teaching may be evil but the fact that someone who spent one day or twenty years in his footsteps and committed murder proves the comments point. If that were the case Jesus and His teaching was evil because of Judas' betral. I am not condoning or condemning this gothart fellow, I just hope this bad experience with him and his teaching does not forever color your judgement of truth. Just seems to be more focus here on gothard than on Jesus. That error has caused more church splits and anger toward one another, than most other things. If this guy is evil and a heretic maybe we should pray for him and trust an all powerful God to bring him to repentance, I just dont here much of that here or anywhere else these days. For instance I have recently been convicted to pray for our president rather than hoping God would take him out of the picture if it took him dying. Holy Spirit broke my heart when he showed my sin I have such along way to go, isnt grace an absolutely a great gift.
As you may have noticed, the stated purpose of this site is to expose the fallacies of Gothard's teachings, so yeah, we're gonna talk about Gothard here. Our hope is to go a step beyond that and lead you out of a works Christianity into true grace... Or at least point the way.
The point was that Gothard PROMISES that if you apply these 7, 12, 49, you-name-it steps to your life, your children WILL turn out to be these amazing, Godly people, never having a 'moral failure' etc... And those promises are not delivering because none of that is based in Scripture.
Jerry, you said, 'If this guy is evil and a heretic maybe we should pray for him and trust an all powerful God to bring him to repentance, I just dont here much of that here or anywhere else these days.'
1, please continue to read this site. There's several people who have mentioned that.
2. The primary purpose of this site is to draw attention to the evil teachings of Gothard, in hopes of pointing lost, suffering people in the right direction, and supporting them during their struggle..
3. 'IF' his teachings are evil.' I can assure you, they are. I invite you to read up on the other stories on this site, the failed protectors, the sexual abuse cases, and the other countless testimonies of how BG's teachings destroyed people (well, would have destroyed if it wasn't for the grace of God.) Additionally, I'd like to add that many folks say, 'well so'n'so misapplied his teachings' or some such thing.. If these cases were isolated, I might agree with you, however there is evidence that the majority of families had massive fallouts of many different, heartwrenching kinds... I watched family after family fall apart, and wondered, 'will something like that happen to us?' yep, it did. It's still happening.
4. If we have evidence that a public 'servant of God' who has incredible influence over thousands of lives, is perpetrating evil teachings, (intentional or not) we have a duty to God and our brothers and sisters in Christ to expose those teachings as evil. Wouldn't you agree? So pray for him, absolutely, by all means, but don't just sit tight and do nothing. Innocent children are being harmed by his teachings. (I was one of them, so were my siblings, and the fallout of that is still causing considerable damage in our lives.. nothing too big for God, but that doesn't make the damage any less hurtful or real..)
I think I'll just go around and hurt people and let others hurt people by not standing up for them so God can show His glory and make it all turn out for good.
/sarcasm
I am attempting to understand the folk here and have attempted to have an honest exchange. I hope and dont think you are representative of the majority here. I am 71 and had to climb fools hill myself, thinking I was much smarter than most others have used sarcasam to put someone who I did not agree with in their place. I pray it was your innocent youth that led you to use sarcasam to put me in my place. I have been put in my place and will butt out.
I'm sorry Jerry, but I find that quite insulting. While most of us are not 71, we are certainly not "youth". I would venture to say that, if you are 71, you have not had the experience of growing up in Gothard's homeschool program. We have, and we know tjat our experiences were real and valid. BTW, I think our age range is anywhere from 20s to 50s. By no stretch of the imagination can we be considered to be "rebelling"; that would imply that we were still of age to be under our parents' authority to start with.
Hannah, I was refering to Darcy.
You wanted a serious reply, so here it is. You said you are attempting to understand folks here. But that is not at all how you came across. You came here, accusations flying, claiming people are "bitter" and "rebellious", among other things. If that's an attempt to understand us, it failed.
As for my use of sarcasm, sometimes it is the best way to prove a point and get people to see that what they thought they said wasn't at all how it came across. Or what they believe isn't solid after all. To come here and tell us to stop "complaining", stop "blaming" other people, and stop trying to bring false teachings to light because God works all evil for good is NOT honest dialog, correct theology, or "trying to understand" anyone.
As for whether I am "representative of the majority here", I never claimed to be. I am just me. But I CAN tell you that there are so many people here like me: people with stories, some heartbreaking, some maddening, some too terrible to write; all unique to us, all working toward healing while warning others of the mines in the minefield. That is our mission here. And the more people like you who come here and call us names, the more we are determined to shine a light on what has become a very dark place in conservative Christianity.
Darcy, I agree. I try to be gracious to people who disagree, but where's the line between being gracious and standing up to horrible wrongdoing, and saying, "NO!" I know God will be faithful to me and help me navigate this path.
it is interesting to note that this"jerry" thinks that he is not judging with the terms bitter, rebellious, and disgruntled. if that is not judging then what is it, pray tell?? you could be a gothardite, you could be a 25 year old, you could be anything!!! if you dont want to help on this site, then why come and cause others to stumble with you comments and misdirection. there are quite a few people who need this site and need to know that GOD is for them not against them. that HE is a loving GOD, not a cruel task master that makes you work and work and work never knowing if you are going to live up to the standard to get you to heaven. if salvation is a gift then it should be seen as the greatest gift of all and not tarnished by the 7 principles of this and the 10 ways of that to get to heaven. i hope you see that there are those that need this site even if you dont and instead of creating devision pray for us. this is a process for us all.
I often wonder about folks that happen upon sites like this and feel led to speak to "bitterness, divisiveness, accusation," etc., that they see in the discussions.
I wonder if they truly don't know what they're getting in to, when you have a group of people trying to deal with hurt from some religious group and warn others of the dangers... (unless they like picking fights w/random strangers?) =o)
I'm sure some are sincerely concerned about unity among Christians. However, if that is defined by not criticizing groups/churches that have a pattern of harming others, then I'm afraid the concern is misdirected.
(also a bit more research into the group/church under fire is always good before getting involved in an online discussion.)
Will, you said, I often wonder about folks that happen upon sites like this and feel led to speak to "bitterness, divisiveness, accusation," etc., I have to wonder whether or not they are trying to justify their continued belief in false doctrines and or sin in their own life. It is seldom easy to admit we are wrong. It is very humbling when ones eyes are opened to the truth of Bill's false teachings. It often leads to brokenness and humility. Coming from a parent who has experienced this the hard way, has been out of ATI for about 8 yrs, and is in some ways still recovering. As for the young man who wrote this open letter, I am proud to call him son.
=)
After reading several stories on this site, I must admit they are consistent with the stories that I hear from people in my church that was raised under Gothard's teaching. I know of many (especially women) that their lives were destroyed because of this teaching. I applaud this site for shedding light on the fallacies of the Gothard teaching. Let us all remember we have not arrived, but we must continue to live under and in the love of Christ.
Pastor Tim
We all are definately a work in progress. I, for one, still have much to learn.
Tim, I have no idea who you are, but I am happy for your congregation that they have a humble and honorable man as their pastor. Thank you Pastor Tim for understanding!
Does anyone know how long this letter has been being handed out? I think it is one of the best causes that I have ever heard.
Just a few weeks, I think. We handed out some tonight at a basic seminar here in Charlotte. A message really worth getting out, even if it's not popular at the moment of the hand-off...!
Wendy, the letters were first handed out at a Basic Seminar in Dallas, Texas, at the end of July. The letter, like this website, is about a month old. :-)
I appreciate the time and effort you put into this. May the Lord bless and open many eyes to the truth behind the teachings of ATI/IBLP.
Well done!!!
God bless you.. I wish so badly that someone had handed this to my parents on their way in. My dad was a seminary grad, and I wonder how the heck he let all this slide. I'm SO GLAD to have found this group and appreciate you all for being part of my healing.
I was not raised in a Christian home but came to the Lord through the influence of my grandfather and others. My older sister who more or less raised me morally so to speak became involved in the Gothard ministries after she and her husband got married when I was 18. She and I have had so many problems in our relationship because of her beliefs due to being involved in this ministry. As I was a new Christian at that time, she was instrumental in teaching me some of the most basic beliefs, many I hold to this day. Many things that I now realize contradict scripture, for example music preferences-that one has been very hard for me to deal with. My poor husband has been through a lot trying to undo all the wrong teaching that I learned from her. In short, nothing I ever do is good enough for her, no matter how hard I try. She gets very defensive when I don't follow her advice, and is always repeating these analogies and what not to me that as has been said have nothing to do with God's Word. Reading through all these comments I feel I can relate to all the people raised this way as I was basically raised with it too through her. Sadly, her older children are walking in rebellion to their teachings and she is slowly losing her grip on their hearts. Finding this site and reading all the comments has really helped me to realize she is not the end all be all of authority in my life and that she is fallible.(Being my big sis, I have always looked up to her and thought she was perfect. I always felt like I let her down) Let me explain, she always makes me feel like I cannot discern scripture for myself and that she is right about it all. I love her very much and pray that God will grow her in her faith all the time. Sounds too simplistic I know but finding this site gives me more love and compassion for her knowing she is a victim of false teaching and I pray the Lord will bring healing to our relationship. Thank you.
your sister sounds like my mom, especially the 'not being good enough for her' part. :(
Forgot to say, great letter. I would definitely read it. Thank you for doing what you are doing to help these people and obviously the people (like me) of the lives they touch.
[...] >Recovering Grace writes a letter to IBPL Basic Seminar attendees. It say grace -a very central gospel concept – does not mean what Gothard say it does, and IBPL misuse... [...]
Let's see... What good can you say about Gothard? I hear certain references regarding certain things, but what greater good has been accomplished in some of the material he has prescribed to people? There are a lot of different people at a lot of different places in their life. Most people I have found are either followers or leaders. The leaders tend to be more successful with the advise Bill gives in his counsel. The followers tend to be looking for a legalistic escape from their God given responsibility to study for themselves. I don't believe the problem is with Gothard himself, but with the many of weak minded individuals who never really have attempted to let God be God in their lives. You know what is funny? Jesus said to deny your self, take up your cross daily and follow Him... Was He out of His mind too? No, of course not, He is our LORD and Savior. So how come many of us don't do this. Because the notion in and of itself is controversial, for many who cannot let go of this world and the things of this world, we will say, "I will, but in God's time", but the reality is this: we will only do it when we feel like it. Bill, again is not the problem, for if you read the Word of God and study it daily, you can see the flaws and truths in his advise. People, he is no different than any of us or other Christians who are writing books, giving advise or trying to encourage one another. The problem lies in the face of those who misinterpret the messenger. I have been gaining a benefit from the insight of Gothard's advise for years, but as he has encouraged me through his resources, I seek my answers in the Word of God first. Most everyone I know is not as disciplined in this basic practice (reading the Bible), but for those that do read daily and search the scriptures themselves, what Gothard or anyone else for that matter teaches on the face of this planet needs to be tested in every way. But to point out only the negative, fair enough, but I hope you have eternity, because you are going to have a long list of people to be exposing if you plan on doing to them what you are trying to do with Bill Gothard. Again, I find most of the information accurate, enticing and rewarding when applied and trusting in God with the conviction of His Word when it is accompanied with it. Here is a thought: How many times does Bill Gothard encourage someone to sin against God, hit your spouse, yell at your friends or kids, curse, lie, steal, commit adultery, be involved in pagan practices, and worship, or some kind of idolatry, go against the government, cheat on your taxes, dishonor your parents, hate and abuse your boss intentionally or unintentionally, give him (Bill) your money, not fellowship with anyone that was not a good or positive influence, etc, etc, etc... He doesn't. Nor has he ever! You guys are making him out to be some kind of narcissistic freak who just loves power, money and the opportunity to abuse people. Like with any of us, he is prone to failure and sin. But to list everything that any leader, speaker, preacher, pastor or doctor has said himself, written a book about or done wrong, would take a life time. I think the problems herein lie with the expectation of the hearer, the misapplied receiver of the advise and the broken people who have tried to make sense of it all without first, trying to seek God the giver of all truth through Jesus Christ. George Muller was a great man of faith and he trusted in God for many things... Where is our trust? God is so awesome to let us experience life, so be it in a non perfect way of course, but that is just our discontent heart again preaching... Romans 8:28 if you really believe it. Thank God for your misery, even that in Bill Gothard : ) But false prophet, I don't think so, you have given him too much credit!
Bill Gothard would agree with you, Joseph, as his response to our concerns is that we must not have followed his teachings carefully enough. Our stories offer a clear picture that the "results" of following his step-by-step programs are not as promised, and that his teachings tend to attract families who abuse their authority over impressionable children. Since I am personally a rule-follower who has read through the Bible many times, I can attest to the fact that your premise that we must all study it for ourselves doesn't take into account the whole picture. We were children. A child wants to please and is naturally trusting. The writers of RG were all children (or barely adults) in the beginning of their time in ATI, and under the authority and teachings of their parents' choosing--even Bible studies were filtered through the lens of what we were being taught through ATI and IBLP. Now that we are adults, we certainly understand much more, and it is why our hearts have driven us to show why we believe it is not possible to maintain a grace-filled, real relationship with God, while following these teachings.
Nope. Problem is w Gothard himself. Pretty darn sure of that one. He is more extreme in person even than his teachings reflect. Check out the Twisted Scriptures section.
My husband and I faithfully attended Bill Gothard's seminar's and his advanced seminar We bought into his teaching on the umbrella of authority.We took everything he taught to heart and enjoyed friend's who also were caught up in this movement. In our fellowship with one another.if we were struggling with a problem, we would go to the big red book. Every time. Then came a time when our little girl was abducted by a stranger and was sexually molested by him. This was such a horrible time of question's and heartache.But what was more confusing was the finger pointing from friend's..asking what sin we committed and we must have gotten out from under the umbrella of protection.That somehow it was our fault and we were being punished for 'something' That any organization could breed such cruelity is beyond understanding.For me..the hurt was too great and i isolated myself from everyone.But the important thing i realised was how little comfort his teaching gave me at this most difficult of time.It was only through the grace of God that in time i slowly began to heal and seek Him and His word without the trapping's of rules.principles and the 7 non optional universal principles.
I am so sorry for what you endured. It was NOT YOUR FAULT!!
Yes. NOT your fault.
But Gothard DOES have some blame coming his way.
Saying people should check his teaching with the Bible is true, yes we should...
but is Gothard not at LEAST as responsible for claiming to know the mind of God on every last nuance of daily life for ALL Christians, in ALL places, at ALL times?
(hint - the correct answer is: YES.)
Wow. Great idea to hand out this letter!!! I grew up in a "second year" family. A friend recommended "A Matter of Basic Principles" to me and I bought it on Amazon for cheap and I was set free by understanding that Jesus has already batted 1000 on my behalf. Oh the genuine joy that comes from freely loving God (withOUT the rules Mr. Gothard set). It's so interesting that when motivated by love for Jesus, I go much further toward living a righteous and God-fearing life than any measure of manipulating, 7 stupid and very optional "principles" or any other cult like crap handed down from the Gothard ivory tower.
It's interesting that the one aspect of God that is VERY much missing in his teachings is the ministry of Holy Spirit. It's almost as though the Holy Spirit doesn't fit in any formulas very well!! Imagine that!!
I am free to love God and so excited to grow!! Thanks for building this site and handing out letter to warn others. This is a worthy cause!
I wish someone would have handed my parents this letter over 15 years ago. Although I rejected the legalism and cult like phenomenon of ATI long ago I honestly could never succinctly explain my hesitations. I never thought to examine the scriptures for myself, or question the majority of Gothard's teachings. I was certain that I did not feel convicted about listening to CC music, or thought I should start wearing skirts and curling my hair all the time! However I did believe that since my parents took us to the seminars they must be worthwhile, applicable, and full of God's truth.
Somehow in the midst of being enrolled in ATI I was still able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit and follow HIM instead of just the rules of ATI. I escaped mostly unscathed but that is not the case of many.
Thank you for building this site, and confronting the issues in a logical and scriptural fashion.
I was wondering if there was a place online where the BG Red Book was in .pdf form. I'd like to download it and put it against scripture on Grace line by line. Have a pastor who I love who is bring up Bill Gothard's teaching in his sermons. This is very disheartening to me as I don't want to have ANY of his teachings preached from the pulpit of our church. Grace flies out the window when Bill Gothard teachings fly in.
Hi Ginny, No, there's no online source for this book. But you can often find used copies for sale on ebay--that way you're not paying money to the organization for the full-price book, but you're able to have your own used copy.
just signed up for ATI cant wait to start.
I know many 2nd generation ati families with none of these issues that are the picture of grace in their lives.
Mike,
Just remember that grace comes from the Lord - not from ATI.
Mike, just so you know, ATI families are really really good at hiding nasty stuff, and pretending everything is just fine. I would know. All may not be as it seems. Please keep that in mind. Jesus should be the only one that we compare ourselves to, and try to model ourselves after. (Yeah, there are a handful of ATI families who seem to be ok, but I have observed that EVERY.SINGLE.ONE of those families are not deeply involved, and they tend to pick and choose what they believe from BG, to the point where they barely qualify as ATI, at least in their lifestyle.) And if those families are truly the picture of Grace, please know to give the credit to God, and no man.
Food for thought. Blessings.
Hey, Mike, check out the "Twisted Scriptures" section. Just so you'll know what things to be alert to.
Hindsight is 20/20.
I am thankful I came across this site. We took our children out of private Christian school so we could homeschool. Our neighbor talked us into using ATI curriculum. I could never really understand how we were going to cover all the important subjects, but I faithfully used it for three years. Then, our oldest was going into high school and I was pretty sure I wanted a more traditional approach to curriculum anyway, so we abandoned it. I was just now considering going through some of our old books again to supplement our other curriculum. I'm so glad I found this site. Your comments remind me of all the things I wondered about and struggled with during the three years we used this program. I praise God that we never really went overboard, and our children understand God's grace from a BIBLICAL perspective. I know that it is only by God's grace that He somehow saved us from ruining our children's lives with this material. Thank you for being open and honest about your past hurts and for seeking to warn others about these teachings. Many Blessings!
I am Christian and in no way affiliated with BG orATI what you are all describing are the classic features of a cult. That Christianity is being so misconstrued is frightening to me. Shining the light of truth thru Gods true word is the only way to combat this. Does anyone know whether or not the TLC network is aware (or cares) that the Duggar family are the poster family for Gothard/ATI? Maybe the show sponsors would care!
For those critical with IBYC / IBLP, ATI, etc. stemming from bad personal (family) experiences, I pray your healing and deliverance. Bill Gothard's teachings have actually helped me resolve several conflicts with my own sin nature, and have improved relationships with my wife, children, extended family, co-workers.
I believe Joseph (December 6, 2011) gave the good insights. Mr. Gothard's seminars give many good pointers lacking in today's teachings. We should still be Bereans Acts 17:11), not putting our entire trust in seminar books or other material guides. Perhaps we have all survived from poor advice of well-meaning friends, or we misunderstood advice that would have actually helped us.
Over the years, I have found today's "grace" teaching incorrectly criticizes work, or human effort, as legalism. This can lead to a license to sin without proper boundaries. A brother would often ask prayer that God would remove his desire for a specific sin, claiming that imposing boundaries to keep him away from that sin would be "legalistic." A former pastor finally stepped down from a similar sin struggle, after attempting to promote a belief of grace over rules and regulations within his congregation. Mr. Gothard's teaching demonstrate appealing to authority, places such as Daniel chapter 1. Perhaps principles of prayer and creative, Godly, appeal to authority can solve some situations described.
Consider that, despite all the teaching on "grace," it appears in only 2 passages throughout the entire Four Gospels. Jesus never used the term, "grace." He stresses "faith" in many healings and miracles. He also promotes work, or personal initiative, to follow faith, in passages such as the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30).
Faith is not automatic but requires "work" (James 2:14-24) or personal initiative. Abraham's faith was perfected through his own initiative in offering up Isaac. Hebrews chapter 11 commends the faith of many, many, Godly saints because of their work, or personal initiative. Despite their initial faith, God required their demonstration of faith through what they did.
Certainly, grace through faith is essential for initial salvation in Christ (Ephesians 2:8,9). However, after initial faith, every man's work will be judged (1 Corinthians 3:13 - 15), as applied to his faith.
Hi Dan, thanks for dropping by! I'm one of many people in the group you are addressing in general. This comment will be hasty on my part because I'm in the middle of a weekend of survival camping with some Boy Scouts, dropping in on a wedding reception, and planning tomorrow's church service around the temporary absence of a key member of our small church's worship team. I say this to make a lighthearted point that I certainly agree there is a lot of work involved in making life go!
You sound like a caring person. Further, I believe I and others would find a lot of common ground with you.
Very quickly, and perhaps we can pursue this discussion more fully in days ahead, I would agree that there is certainly a lot of work involved. Hebrews talks about "rest" and even there we know that God's "rest" is not the same as "doing nothing". James talks about faith without works. James was addressing a different problem than Paul in Galatians. I think of the people walking around the wall of Jericho. On one hand, it wasn't the "work" of the people that conquered Jericho by any stretch, and yet the people didn't sit on their couch and wait for God to do it all without them, either.
I don't follow your line of reasoning about Jesus only using the word grace so many times. I believe the NT is to be taken as a whole. I don't agree with people, for example who pit Jesus against Paul or Paul against Jesus in an attempt to recover the 'real' message. I'm not saying you are doing this, it's just an example. Throughout the NT, if we look at passages that use the metaphor of "walk" or of "fruit", or the term "one another" I believe that there is a lot of overlap, and I believe that a lifestyle marked by characteristics such as the fruit of the Spirit is a life that is also marked by grace. If you try to subtract grace out, you will end up with working to earn something as opposed to working as a result of what God has already done, undeserved on our part ('while we were yet sinnners...'). This ends up going to moralism, which is more like what we would commonly call Pharisaism rather than the message of saving grace presented by Jesus Christ and his apostles after him. Moralism is not significantly different from any popular religion. There is something about Christianity that is distinctively different from other religions. I was searching for a video where Tim Keller speaks to this - I didn't find the video right off but this blog post came up: http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2011/07/11/what-is-the-difference-between-religion-and-the-gospel-part-1/
You know a pastor who preached about grace and was found to be in sin. I can point to a pastor in Hammond, Indiana who was all about being Fundamental, not at all about grace, and he was in sin with a bunch of girls. And many others besides. Anecdotes do not equal evidence. It is not news that pastors or any other believers struggle with sexual sin. What is news is when someone truly finds freedom from their sin. My experience leads me to believe that a church which understands grace is much more likely a place that someone will experience heart change. Jesus knocked the Pharisees for washing the outside of the cup but not the inside. I see grace as an essential part of the solution that gets to the heart, the inside of the cup. This is as opposed to Gothard's teachings where more discipline and more rules are offered, leading to a focus on the outside of the cup and leaving the inside hurting and guilty but not helped.
Your final comment might seem to suggest that while salvation is entirely a gift, sanctification is something we have to make happen. I see Gal 3 as opposed to this: You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” This can be a deep discussion, but from my perspective, one difference between Catholics and Protestants has been a difference in the view of Justification and Sanctification. I believe the same grace which saves, not by works which we have done, is the same grace that continues to effect heart change.
I think the parable of the workers in the vineyard applies here (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/08/the-unfair-bonus/) They worked, but the emphasis was on the lord's generosity, not on what they earned.
Of course, there are some who use grace as a license to sin. Paul warned us about this and it remains a danger today.
Final comment (you raised a lot of points :-) ), I am curious to know how you see Gothard's instructions on appealing to authority as helpful to anyone in an abusive situation. I have never understood how his teaching about appeals helps anyone who is under the authority of an abusive person. It seems to me his teachings about authority are extremely biased in favor of the one in power, with almost the same effect as "might makes right."
Sorry, one more: In the interest of finding common ground, are there any books about grace that you agree with? Swindoll's "Grace Awakening" or any books by Jerry Bridges, for example?
Bill Gothard is the very definition of a legalistic heretic. He is a preacher of, "another gospel." The worst damage he has done is to the lives of those who don't know they have been blinded to the grace of God in Jesus Christ. It is a testimony to the lack of discernment in the body of Christ that someone like him could do as much damage as he has done.
A red flag should start waving immediately a person is told that they can't talk about what they have learned outside the seminars. True story. I lived with a family for three months who are involved with ATI and IBLP. They told me they weren't supposed to share their teachings with outsiders.
I would have thought if Bill Gothard believed his own teachings he would be telling others to shout it from the rooftops.
[...] about Bill Gothard and the Institue of Basic Life Principles (IBLP) for many years and had attended the Basic Seminar several times, but they were newly introduced to this phenomenal homeschool [...]
I know I'm a complete stranger, but please, would you all pray for my husband here? He was not brought up with Gothard, but he now has a mentor trying to steep him in Gothard's principles. My husband first sent me "How can I meet my Husband's basic needs?" Article from the website. I instead first read the wife's version. Red flags went up in my spirit immediately. And then I read the husband's version and let our marriage counselor know. She has already seen numerous marriages come across her sessions almost destroyed by Gothard's teachings. My husband is beginning to think he is god in our home, and it's not turning out well. The oppression and fear here in our home is very scary. Please pray that all meetings with this mentor will somehow be cancelled. Please pray that the scales will fall off my husband's eyes. And please pray for my strength to stand in intersession for my husband. He doesn't even realize the deception he's experiencing.
Oh dear. Yes Rachel, we will pray. I'm really sorry to hear this!
Praying :(
Rachael, Thank you for sharing---I will pray for you! I don't know if you've read this article, but I thought it might bring you some encouragement. It's written by a wife/mom who has also been where you are: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/03/passive-moms-a-plea-for-compassion/.
Thank you, Beverly. I will definitely go read that right now.
And EVERYONE... how you have touched my heart by offering to pray!
Rachael,
So sorry to hear about your husband! I do pray that God will open his eyes and that he will listen to the advice of your marriage counselor. I pray that God will give you wisdom to know how to reach his heart in the midst of this difficult time. And I pray that his relationship with the ungodly "mentor" will end very soon. May God surround you with His love and peace during this difficult time in your marriage.
Rachael, I am so sorry that you are going through this. That is a hard place to be. I will be praying for you.
[...] my little sister and me for a year before we joined ATI. When I was 13, we attended our first Basic Seminar. I sat through the whole thing with my parents. Afterward my stepdad brought me into a side room, [...]
[...] a pastor and my parents had been familiar with the Institute of Basic Life Principles (IBLP), the Basic Seminar, and the Advanced Seminar for many years, so when their homeschooling friends told them about ATI [...]
[…] displayed for decades at the highest levels of IBLP leadership. Our thought at the time was that the most viscerally damaging effects of Gothardism were spiritual, and that Bill Gothard’s worst flaws were theological and hermeneutical. As such, most of our […]
[…] displayed for decades at the highest levels of IBLP leadership. Our thought at the time was that the most viscerally damaging effects of Gothardism were spiritual, and that Bill Gothard’s worst flaws were theological and hermeneutical. As such, most of our […]
I personally know nothing of Bill Gothard. I was part of a "cutting-edge", "radical", high-commitment Christian commune for 15 years, and we would have scorned many of the ideas I have read here, like girls not riding horses, thinking how foolish it would be for anyone to take such things seriously. And yet all the same -thinking we were so wise- we labored under the very same earning-grace-through-performance mentality I have read about here.
Our young, dynamic, on-fire, long-haired preacher used different terminology, like "If Jesus is not Lord of all then He is not Lord at all", and emphasized words like "commitment" ["Real Christians are committed; how can you say you love God unless you're committed to Him?"], demanding of us to re-examine our priorities and motivations, second- and third-guess ourselves to the dust to make sure that we were not "doing our own thing in Jesus' Name," for we could loose our salvation if we did that. Finally came the world-without-end altar calls. "How will you stand up before the world if you can't stand up before a room full of Christians?" Sigh.
The reason why I bring this up is because whether by Gothard or anyone else, it is a basic heresy, called by some "Lordship Salvation", and if the term is unfamiliar and if any are curious, there are some very good sites that expose it in detail.
Sanctification is by faith every bit as much as salvation is. Wonderful, liberating truth!
Pharisees are always obsessed about whether or not their acolytes are working hard enough, and we worked plenty hard, but there was also a lot of sin under the surface of things just as I have read about here, and a lot of people -especially the children- who escaped that place jettisoned their faith and/or struggle with bitterness as well.
[…] been writing to an audience of past and present ATI students and families in an effort to warn them of the dangers of Bill Gothard’s teachings, and of his ongoing personal failure to practice what he preaches. These stories have spread like […]
[…] for decades at the highest levels of IBLP leadership. Our thought at the time was that the most viscerally damaging effects of Gothardism were spiritual, and that Bill Gothard’s worst flaws were theological and hermeneutical. As such, most of our […]
[…] displayed for decades at the highest levels of IBLP leadership. Our thought at the time was that the most viscerally damaging effects of Gothardism were spiritual, and that Bill Gothard’s worst flaws were theological and hermeneutical. As such, most of our […]
[…] displayed for decades at the highest levels of IBLP leadership. Our thought at the time was that the most viscerally damaging effects of Gothardism were spiritual,and that Bill Gothard’s worst flaws were theological and hermeneutical. As such, most of our […]
I had to attend Bill Gothard's Basic Youth Conflicts seminar at the behest of my future in-laws. After all the shouting was done, I figured out what actually drove Bill Gothard! "Nobody ever went broke underestimating either the taste or the intelligence of the American public!"